J120 Ishun Tank Traps

[Melvin Falk]

Thanks for the repsonses. FWIW, we are playing it that no result on the dr does not reveal an adjacent tank trap,

And a result "in a woods-tank-trap hex" reveal all adjacent Open-Ground-tank-trap hexes? That is not the way the SSR is written.

but a tank trap is revealed if the AFV enters its hex (kinda hard not to reveal it here since the dr is not secret).

Of course.

[radsty]

And a result "in a woods-tank-trap hex" reveal all adjacent Open-Ground-tank-trap hexes? That is not the way the SSR is written.

My understanding is that we will reveal only where the tank enters the open ground hex containing the trap. Where a tank tries to by-pass an adjacent woods hex we will roll, but not reveal (regardless of result). The approach benefits the Germans a bit and keeps the "on the edge of your seat" experience in play a little longer.

It turned out in this particular instance the tank veered into the location where the trap actually was located. We revealed the trap and made the roll, which wrecked the tank. So, under this approach, the Germans got two attacks arising out of the hidden nature of this one trap. In each case, it was announced that there was a trap before making the dr, which was done publicly.

Either way, it's an interesting scenario SSR. I'd certainly love to have that extra squad and PSK as the German defender, too!

Thanks for all of the comments/input. Much appreciated.

[von Marwitz]

Your reasoning is not correct and I´m sure you cannot come to that conclusion through the written SSR or any other standard rule for that matter as you try to do with the minefield rules.

No, to draw that conclusion I think is wrong, nothing in the SSR supports that conclusion.

Following the wording of the SSR, there is no indication that the tank trap is revealed by anything. It states that it cannot be found by infantry or searching and it omits that it can be revealed by a tank entering a tank trap hex or an adjacent woods hex (even if being wrecked by or falling into it).

IMHO, the SSR does not need to state anything about revelation by tanks driving through/wrecking/falling into/bypassing adjacent woods to support my view. As Klas righly pointed out, fake DR/dr are NA (and I bet he is able to give a rule, Q/A or Perry Sez to base that on). So if during play, you roll a die, you have to prove that you may do it.
Otherwise, what would be your solution if one player would claim: "You have just made a fake dr!" Prove that it is not the case after the game? I think you would have to prove right away that it is not fake. The only possibilty to do so is to show the (adjacent) TT-hex on your secret pre-game side note - which is in fact the same as revealing it.

Besides that, even if the non-fake nature of a dr would not have to be proved immediately, what would be the consequence?
Proving the "legality" after the game would be quite absurd as it would - carried to extremes - force you to note all moves/game situations during play in which such a dr occurred as it might be very well impossible to memorize them. But heeding the SSR to the letter, this would, in this case, have to be your line of argument.

Thus, I still do not think your argument correct or in line with the intention of the scenario designer. In fact, I would readily bet you a beer on it if we happen to meet again at next Arnhem tournament.

The best solution would be to ask the scenario designer. If that cannot be done, defining the SSR to whatever ends as the tournament director for your tournament is the way to go - it does not "solve" the problem but "fixes" it for your purposes.

von Marwitz

[Melvin Falk]

Following the wording of the SSR, there is no indication that the tank trap is revealed by anything. It states that it cannot be found by infantry or searching and it omits that it can be revealed by a tank entering a tank trap hex or an adjacent woods hex (even if being wrecked by or falling into it).

When a dr is made when a tank enters an Open Ground hex, will reveal the tank trap hex. Entering a woods hex with a tank and a dr is made indicates to the Russian player that a tank trap hex(es) is in any of the adjacent OG hexes.

IMHO, the SSR does not need to state anything about revelation by tanks driving through/wrecking/falling into/bypassing adjacent woods to support my view. As Klas righly pointed out, fake DR/dr are NA (and I bet he is able to give a rule, Q/A or Perry Sez to base that on). So if during play, you roll a die, you have to prove that you may do it.

I´m positive that Klas in no way can support your view. I agree that no fake dr can be made, meaning that dr may only be made if allowed to by the SSR.

Otherwise, what would be your solution if one player would claim: "You have just made a fake dr!" Prove that it is not the case after the game? I think you would have to prove right away that it is not fake. The only possibilty to do so is to show the (adjacent) TT-hex on your secret pre-game side note - which is in fact the same as revealing it.

If one player claimed that, I would wonder if he has looked at my secret notes at the table while I was not looking and "rewrote my secret notes" to be able to make such a false claim, it would be much better if he asked me to look at my secret notes to make sure that I really had a tank trap that allowed my dr.

Besides that, even if the non-fake nature of a dr would not have to be proved immediately, what would be the consequence?
Proving the "legality" after the game would be quite absurd as it would - carried to extremes - force you to note all moves/game situations during play in which such a dr occurred as it might be very well impossible to memorize them. But heeding the SSR to the letter, this would, in this case, have to be your line of argument.

See nothing extreme with the SSR, played the scenario several times and neither did I our my opponent had any problems with it.

Thus, I still do not think your argument correct or in line with the intention of the scenario designer. In fact, I would readily bet you a beer on it if we happen to meet again at next Arnhem tournament.

The best solution would be to ask the scenario designer. If that cannot be done, defining the SSR to whatever ends as the tournament director for your tournament is the way to go - it does not "solve" the problem but "fixes" it for your purposes.

von Marwitz

I don´t drink beer but thanks anyhow, didn´t know we meet before but that the downside with you forum-name, I guess or if its your real name I don´t remember it.

The designer Ola has pre-registered to the tournament and I have even played the scenario with him a couple of months ago,
never experienced any problems with the SSR, you seek to portray.

Here is the rewritten SSR (in the middle part of the SSR) that makes it a little better in my opinion, not that it changes anything we have discussed here about this SSR:

SSR 2. ........ Anytime an AFV enters a tank trap hex, place out a black (DM +4) counter, or a woods hex
adjacent to any tank trap, a dr is immediately made.....

The original reads:
SSR 2. ........ Anytime an AFV enters a tank trap hex or any adjacent woods hex a dr is immediately made.....

[Melvin Falk]

My understanding is that we will reveal only where the tank enters the open ground hex containing the trap. Where a tank tries to by-pass an adjacent woods hex we will roll, but not reveal (regardless of result). The approach benefits the Germans a bit and keeps the "on the edge of your seat" experience in play a little longer.

It turned out in this particular instance the tank veered into the location where the trap actually was located. We revealed the trap and made the roll, which wrecked the tank. So, under this approach, the Germans got two attacks arising out of the hidden nature of this one trap. In each case, it was announced that there was a trap before making the dr, which was done publicly.

Either way, it's an interesting scenario SSR. I'd certainly love to have that extra squad and PSK as the German defender, too!

Thanks for all of the comments/input. Much appreciated.

I agree with the way you played with the SSR and also that it is a fun SSR to a good scenario.