VASL boards vs. "real" boards

[Luke Sineath]

This has probably been discussed to death before, but:

I was reading the Training Manual (Chapter K) and came across something interesting. I was reading along with VASL up, just because it is easier to switch boards and things like that than fooling around with the real thing. But I found something really interesting: on page K8, the Drill Sergeant asks if we can see FF5 from Z5. He's giving us a tip that sighting an LOS along hexspines are really easy to eyeball here. The answer the squad gives is "yes."

However, to me eyeballing it in VASL, it looks blocked, due to the woods in CC5 which barely touch the hexside. The VASL LOS thread also tells me it is blocked. So then I take a look at board 1. I don't have a SK-style board 1, but I do have 3 or 4 copies of the old board. And looking at those, it is a real tough call. I mean, yeah, it sort of looks like the woods come out to the hexside, but it isn't as obvious as on the VASL map. It sort of looks like an ink smudge or printer mistake. Especially when you compare the edge of these woods to those in hex DD8. I'm guessing that hex 1CC5 has been argued over before, in myriad games played. But when it comes down to it, the LOS from Z5 to FF5 does look clear to me.

(Also, I'm reading the second edition of the RB. Maybe this is an erratum. I kind of doubt it, though.)

But this brings up a larger question: how to deal with discrepancies between the boards on VASL and the boards as we have them otherwise? I once played a VASL game with a guy who kept checking the LOS on his boards at home. If the LOS looked really close on VASL, he'd pause and say, "hang on, let me check the actual board here, because sometimes VASL is off." Of course, I didn't have my boards handy at the time and couldn't verify what he reported. And besides that, it seemed fishy to me. They guy could have been sitting there checking LOSes all the time before declaring shots, without my knowing it! I think this kind of thing definitely constitutes cheating, but we can set it aside.

Honestly, I think that if I'm playing a game on VASL, then I'm using a VASL board, which may or may not be identical to the original board. I'm sure for the most part they are, but when discrepancies arise then we may as well stick to the board we are on. But is there any other consensus among players? Thus far I've only met one guy who checks his physical boards while playing the game, but I've hardly played that many people.

[Aaron Cleavin]

Woods extending to but not across the Hexspine does not block spinal LOS, as the woods depiction does not appear on both sides of the thread.

[Luke Sineath]

Woods extending to but not across the Hexspine does not block spinal LOS, as the woods depiction does not appear on both sides of the thread.

Interesting. My VASL LOS tool definitely reports the LOS as blocked.

[Aaron Cleavin]

Interesting. My VASL LOS tool definitely reports the LOS as blocked.

Trust not in tools, draw from the good book.

[Jazz]

1.What version of VASL boards were you using? The V5 VASL boards are intended to mimic the artwork on the SK style boards, and there are a number of non-trivial variations between SK style boards and old style boards. It's not a VASL problem, but an ASL problem that pops up most often in VASL because people may be playing with different versions of the boards where FtF play is by definition on the same version of board. I think I've only seen one extremely long snakey LOS on matching VASL and real board come up different.

2. When playing VASL, I've always made LOS calls based on eye-balling the VASL virtual LOS thread on the VASL boards. Just too damn cumbersome to pull out the physical boards to make an LOS check. It is even more cumbersome and just as prone to variation in results if the LOS spans multiple boards. High price to pay for precious little benefit IMMHO.

3. DO NOT TRUST THE LOS ENGINE ON VASL!!!! It's results are not robust, it does not work on overlays, and should be going away in future versions of VASL, if it hasn't already. I might look at it in passing, but I do not use it to make the final call on LOS.

[rdw5150]

3. DO NOT TRUST THE LOS ENGINE ON VASL!!!! It's results are not robust, it does not work on overlays, and should be going away in future versions of VASL, if it hasn't already. I might look at it in passing, but I do not use it to make the final call on LOS.

Are you saying you just eyeball the "thread" in VASL and do not pay attention to what it "says" is blocked or not blocked?

If so, I agree. I just eyeball the string as well.

Peace

Roger

[Jazz]

Are you saying you just eyeball the "thread" in VASL and do not pay attention to what it "says" is blocked or not blocked?

If so, I agree. I just eyeball the string as well.

Peace

Roger

Yup, thats what I'm sayin'....

[Count_Zero]

Yup, thats what I'm sayin'....

Herein lieth wisdom. The Great Jazz-Booty hath spoken. Let all give heed and be edified.

[jwb3]

I once played a VASL game with a guy who kept checking the LOS on his boards at home. If the LOS looked really close on VASL, he'd pause and say, "hang on, let me check the actual board here, because sometimes VASL is off." Of course, I didn't have my boards handy at the time and couldn't verify what he reported. And besides that, it seemed fishy to me. They guy could have been sitting there checking LOSes all the time before declaring shots, without my knowing it!

It is highly unlikely that he was cheating, IMO.

First, in my (admittedly limited) experience, most people on VASL are basically good people, and it pays to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Second, it used to be pretty common to check close LOS against the real boards, because the boards back in the early days were pretty crudely done. It was generally agreed that they were just stand-ins for the real boards and that the real boards should govern. Only as the Map Cabal provided better and better copies of the real boards did it become reasonable to just use the VASL boards "as is". Your opponent was probably just someone who sticks to the old ways.

Honestly, I think that if I'm playing a game on VASL, then I'm using a VASL board, which may or may not be identical to the original board. I'm sure for the most part they are, but when discrepancies arise then we may as well stick to the board we are on. But is there any other consensus among players? Thus far I've only met one guy who checks his physical boards while playing the game, but I've hardly played that many people.

If I were using VASL these days I'd probably just stick with the VASL board. However, it's the sort of thing best discussed with a new opponent before your first game.


John

[SCK40]

To me you're playing on the board you're playing on, virtual or otherwise, and the LOS should be judged on that basis.

I never liked the VASL LOS tool as it provides no incentive to learn the LOS rules well. Then, in those cases when the tool is "wrong", you don't know why its wrong. I think the most commong LOS problems arise from LOS situations involving origin/destination at different elevations and the necessary blind hex calculations arising therefrom. The LOS engine just uses the "blind hex equation" to come up with a solution anyway, and it's easy to learn and apply yourself.