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Thread: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

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    Chief Defender of the Faith ADMIN Dr Zaius's Avatar
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    Re: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

    There's no questions the Germans operated differently on the Eastern Front than they elsewhere, that much is clear. But did the Soviets operate differently once they were in the West than they did on the Eastern Front?
    "I have always known about man. From the evidence, I believe his wisdom must walk hand and hand with his idiocy. His emotions must rule his brain. He must be a warlike creature who gives battle to everything around him, even himself." - Dr. Zaius

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    Forum Guru Dave68124's Avatar
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    Re: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Dorosh View Post
    The "rules" were entirely different. Hitler's general orders before the invasion of the Soviet Union made that clear. You need to understand the entire context of the operational orders for BARBAROSSA to put the later occupation into proper perspective.
    I get that. The context of my post and question at hand was that without brutality, the Nazi regime could not exist. France and as pointed out later, Denmark, were exceptions to that rule. If the same occupation practices of France and Denmark were employed in the Ukraine and Baltic states, one wonders if they would have had a more willing population to help the Germans seeing that they may have been "liberators" rather than replacing one tyrannical government with another. Hence, if you knew that you could not conquer the Soviet Union then the political aim of the invasion would have been to create a civil war and keep the Soviet Union fighting a civil war and thus occupied with itself for years to come. Hitler's easter border all of sudden becomes pretty secure.

  3. #33
    See Dummies in the index Vinnie's Avatar
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    Re: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

    I don't think a Rusdian civil war would have made much difference. The materiel disparity wold have required the output of most of the german factories be sent east to arm their side. The most Ukraine Estonia Latvia et al could have supplid would have been the man power.
    The soviet armies crushed those opposed to them in much the same way as the US did in Vietnam but without the political reticence to limit their operations.

    It comes down to army destruction and the ability to reconstitute. The Soviet Union was so large that the mere covering of distance wore out armies. Could the Germans have crushed another soviet army if given a free hand by the Grofaz? I think so. Would it have made a difference innthe end? No. The factors of size still remain.
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    Forum Guru Michael Dorosh's Avatar
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    Re: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
    I don't think a Rusdian civil war would have made much difference.
    What you think doesn't matter; they were fighting in the Ukraine well into the late 1940s and perhaps 1950s, so they proved you right.

  5. #35
    That's what she said! Psycho's Avatar
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    Re: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinnie View Post
    I don't think a Rusdian civil war would have made much difference. The materiel disparity wold have required the output of most of the german factories be sent east to arm their side. The most Ukraine Estonia Latvia et al could have supplid would have been the man power.
    The soviet armies crushed those opposed to them in much the same way as the US did in Vietnam but without the political reticence to limit their operations.

    It comes down to army destruction and the ability to reconstitute. The Soviet Union was so large that the mere covering of distance wore out armies. Could the Germans have crushed another soviet army if given a free hand by the Grofaz? I think so. Would it have made a difference innthe end? No. The factors of size still remain.
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    Re: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Maddox View Post
    There's no questions the Germans operated differently on the Eastern Front than they elsewhere, that much is clear.
    That is an extraordinary understatement. It a little bit like saying tabasco sauce has a slightly different flavour than tap water.

    Make no mistake, the Wehrmacht was a willing and enthusiastic participant in genocide. It wasn't just the SS who behaved criminally.

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    Re: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Maddox View Post
    Col. Glantz's conclusions regarding German operations on the Eastern Front tend to be, shall we say, more than a little pessimistic. F.
    How on earth do you get that? His books are great because they compare what the German records say to what the Russian records say. The truth is in the narrow space between them.

    I really don't get that he is compensating for some the earlier flawed works. Some of those earlier works are so flawed they should be moved to the fiction section.
    Glantz' books are too dry and factual to have much room for spin.

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    Hoarding ASL items....... Kevin Kenneally's Avatar
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    Re: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

    To add my opinion.

    I think the Germans could have pulled this off; only if they had a secured West Front, with Great Britian as a friend.

    That could have freed up over 40 more fighting divisions in early 1941 to make the objectives of Leningrad and Moscow by October.
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  9. #39
    That's what she said! Psycho's Avatar
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    Re: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Kenneally View Post
    To add my opinion.

    I think the Germans could have pulled this off; only if they had a secured West Front, with Great Britian as a friend.

    That could have freed up over 40 more fighting divisions in early 1941 to make the objectives of Leningrad and Moscow by October.
    Good luck with all that!
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    His Royal Fubar Manilianus's Avatar
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    Re: Could the Germans have won on the Eastern Front?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho View Post
    Good luck with all that!
    You're 70 years behind with those blessings, ya know

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