View Full Version : PUZZLES #1
I thought this forum would be a great place to reprint all the WCW Puzzles we did a few years back. I have 16 of them and using the new VASL boards it will be easy to place them here. Maybe if Nat feels like starting 'puzzles/quiz' section, we can all get in the act. I think stuff like this helps us learn.
Most of the situations in these puzzles came from end game experiences I had. We are always confronted with decisions during a game that require our quick action. Those who are better at this decision making will ultimately be more successful then the rest.
Also, when would you guys like me to publish the answer that was published originally? Should I do it right away, or wait a determined amount of time?
So, here it is:
http://home.attbi.com/~mglouie/clips/quiz1.jpg
Puzzle #1 SSR:
1. EC are moderate with no wind at start. The stream is shallow. Building X1 is a rowhouse.
2. No Quarter has been invoked by both sides.
3. It is the start of German player turn 6a. The game ends at the end of Russian player turn 6b.
4. There is a breach in the rowhouse wall at ground level.
This puzzle is a rather simple one but I've seen many beginners lose games because they are not well versed on the Building Control rules (A26.12).
Puzzle: What can the German player do to help assure victory by maintaining control of building X1. If X1 falls to the Russians the German player will lose the scenario. Remember that a Rowhouse is considered one building for Building Control purposes. Explain the German turn starting with the Rally Phase.
Bonus: Also Explain what the Russian response should be.
Puzzle by Louie Tokarz
Fred Ingram
09 Feb 03, 00:23
GREAT Idea (but what does it say behind the illustration ?
Nat Mallet
09 Feb 03, 00:24
This is an awesome idea! I don't know if it should be in its own forum or if the Rules forums should be expanded to cover puzzles, but I love the puzzle idea.
I'd post the answer maybe a day or two after the puzzle has been posted. It would give people time to look at the puzzle, think about it, look up rules (for Newbs like me), etc.
I'll try to answer this puzzle, once I read the Building Control rules. :)
Nat
Hi Fred,
Long time no see. Not sure I understand what you mean by, "behind the illustration"?
Hmm, I must be slow (of course it is 7am Sunday morning), but the only thing I can think of is to have the 10-3 skulk behind the building. Assuming the self rally does not work, I don't see how the brokies can effect the battle at all. The can't get into the building, which could keep control of the building by routing up stairs in the 6b RtPh, so they look like sniper bait to me. 10-3 would then advance into one of the building hexes, to self brake if it survies, routing upstairs to retain control.
For the Soviet player, the tank will have to overrun into the building to prevent the 10-3 from self breaking, possibly causing rubble or falling into the celler. And of course, it is possible that the two 447s' AFPh shot could kill the 10-3. However, it would probably come down to a CCPh attack, if the net +2 drm for the soviets does not allow the 10-3 to withdraw for the win.
For the Soviet player, the tank will have to overrun into the building
I was in the shower before I thought, why overrun when you can bypass. Pretty much the same strategy though.
German
Attempt to selfrally broken (this guy is out of the picture)
No prep
Advance into stream behind building (4mp)
Advance phase advance into ground lvl of X1 going CX in the process(6mp)
Russian
No Rally
Fires tank at 10-3 then intensive fires again.
You have to kill he leader, breaking him will not do as he will rout upstairs.
If you move the tank into bypass or his location. He gets streetfighting and gets the option to withdraw(ie he will go upstairs) during the CC phase. This even occurs if you have russian infantry with the tank.
Basically the russian is hosed.
Fred Ingram
09 Feb 03, 12:35
Louie: I was using netscape as my browser. The HTML you used must be interpreted differently as the text does not look obscured by the picture in Microsoft IE :oops:
By the way - the Russians need to try single man overruns
If you move the tank into bypass or his location. He gets streetfighting and gets the option to withdraw(ie he will go upstairs) during the CC phase. This even occurs if you have russian infantry with the tank.
Streetfighting does not allow you to withdraw; you may only withdraw if you actually ambush the unit. Still likely with the +2 net, or +1 net if the tank goes CE, A11.4.
Yes, you can no longer withdraw from streetfighting, something 'Mac said' you could do back in the day. I really don't know why MMP changed this, I always thought evened things up a bit, especially since some folks think the Vehicle Bypass Freeze is sleaze (I don't).
By the way - the Russians need to try single man overruns
Declaring double time to do so, the one squad has a chance to try overrun, if it passes a 3TC! I'm not possitive about the odds, but I think taking a chance on the ambush dr is a bit better than the 16.3% chance of conducting a successful SMC overrun. Of course, it may be worth a try, although if it fails, it gives you another +1 for the ambush dr because you have to be CX to try the SMC OVR.
Hmmm, Guess I have played SF wrong. After a reread of the ambush rules, guess Steeetfighting ambush and ambush are two different things. Also noticed however if a AFV advances into your location (ie bypass or something) Ambush is N/A. As ambush can only occur whenever infantry advance into CC. (A11.4). So to ambush a AFV you have to advance into it's location. Like I said I learn something everyday.
We also have not discussed PF; however, since this can't be 1945 (owing to the T-43) the leader has as much chance of pinning himself as in finding a PF if PF are available. Since a pin precludes the use of ambush withdraw, rolling for a PF is probably not a good idea, since hitting the T-43 is at best a 77% chance if you take the backblast.
Fred Ingram
09 Feb 03, 15:18
Someone wrote:
Declaring double time to do so, the one squad has a chance to try overrun, if it passes a 3TC! I'm not possitive about the odds, but I think taking a chance on the ambush dr is a bit better than the 16.3% chance of conducting a successful SMC overrun. Of course, it may be worth a try, although if it fails, it gives you another +1 for the ambush dr because you have to be CX to try the SMC OVR.
There won't be any ambush in the CC phase, the 10-3 will have already voluntarily broke and routed upstairs - sealing the building control win (the whole point about this puzzle)
Fred Ingram
09 Feb 03, 15:19
Someone wrote:
Declaring double time to do so, the one squad has a chance to try overrun, if it passes a 3TC! I'm not possitive about the odds, but I think taking a chance on the ambush dr is a bit better than the 16.3% chance of conducting a successful SMC overrun. Of course, it may be worth a try, although if it fails, it gives you another +1 for the ambush dr because you have to be CX to try the SMC OVR.
There won't be any ambush in the CC phase, the 10-3 will have already voluntarily broke and routed upstairs - sealing the building control win (the whole point about this puzzle)
:twisted:
Fred Ingram
09 Feb 03, 15:19
Someone wrote:
Declaring double time to do so, the one squad has a chance to try overrun, if it passes a 3TC! I'm not possitive about the odds, but I think taking a chance on the ambush dr is a bit better than the 16.3% chance of conducting a successful SMC overrun. Of course, it may be worth a try, although if it fails, it gives you another +1 for the ambush dr because you have to be CX to try the SMC OVR.
There won't be any ambush in the CC phase, the 10-3 will have already voluntarily broke and routed upstairs - sealing the building control win (the whole point about this puzzle)
:idea: :idea:
Someone wrote:
There won't be any ambush in the CC phase, the 10-3 will have already voluntarily broke and routed upstairs - sealing the building control win (the whole point about this puzzle)
You missed the point; if the tank is in bypass, then the german leader cannot rout upstairs.
Brian
You missed the point; if the tank is in bypass, then the german leader cannot rout upstairs.
Actually, and I am surprised I missed it, there is a much easier way to counter the RtPh upstairs to win == encricling the 10-3 in the AFPh. If it becomes encircled, it cannot break else be forced to surrender. However, this relies upon no quarter not being ineffect nor can the 10-3 be SS.
I blame the cropping out of the hex to the north of the building :)
Anonymous
09 Feb 03, 16:02
I believe the Russian is far from being hosed. It is the German who has to play the odds in order to pull this out. Assume the broken squad does not self-rally – if he does, the German wins.
There are 2 ways for the German to keep his guy alive in the building. One is to be able to rout upstairs, the other is to ambush withdraw from CC.
I believe the rout move is a non-starter. The Russian only needs to place his tank in the ground level location of the 10-3 in order to prevent the rout move. The odds of killing the tank are slim if not impossible – i.e., base CCV is 2, with a possible –1 for street fighting, but a +2 for motion = a +1 DRM making it impossible to kill during CC Reaction fire. If the 10-3 rolls a 1dr for ATMM, he has a shot by making the DRM now a –2 total. In order to do this, he can not be CX. The only way to attempt to get the rout move is to be able to get an ATMM in CC Reaction fire and kill the tank then. The down side is if he pins, he adds the +1 mod to the ensuing CC ambush roll.
The other option is ambush withdrawal from CC. In order to o this, the German must maximize the differences in ambush modifiers. The tank will give the Russians a +2 (or +3 if still BU), but the German will get a +1 if CX. It is better for him to have no CX, and get the +2/3 difference for this roll.
With this said, I believe the best option for the German is to make sure he is not CX during the Russian turn. In order to do this, I believe the best move is to AM into the woods with the broken unit. This will expose him to a 4+1 attack, followed by a 2+1 attack. Something the 10-3 should, but will not necessarily pass. He can then advance back into X2, non-CX.
If he skulks into the Stream, he will be CX when he advances into the building. This will prevent any possible chance to stop the Russian tank with Reaction Fire, forcing him to rely on a successful ambush in CC, with a +1 vs +2/3 modifier. He will not survive any CC if he does not get the ambush.
From the Russian side, assume the 10-3 made it back to X2, non-CX.
The Russian has many choices, none of them real sure.
1 He must place the tank in the location to prevent the rout upstairs move. He can choose to either leave the tank in motion, reducing the odds of a CC Reaction fire/CC attack, or stop it, increasing the odds of his own CC attack if he survives.
2 He must decide if he wants just the tank to kill the German – allowing him to not advance in and guaranteeing a CC with no ambush.
3. In addition, he moves the squads to Y3/Y2, preventing any rout to X1, and forming an 8fp FG during AFPh. I would not try an infantry OVR, as you would need a 2or 3 DR for the NTC, and you would need to go CX, increasing your possible ambush modifiers.
Bottom line – I think the Russian places his tank in the hex, decides if he wants a 7 or 9 CC attack to win, suffering either a no chance (in motion) or a 3 DR in reaction fire and in CC (stopped) prior to getting his shot.
If the German is CX (i.e., takes the skulk move), then the Russian can easily go in stopped, and only sees a 2 DR doing any damage, with a 9 needed by the tank coming back in CC.
Only thing I can see wrong is about the ambush. If a AFV enters a location with a enemy unit Ambush is N/A. Unless I am missing something ambush only occurs when "infantry" advance into a location.
Only thing I can see wrong is about the ambush. If a AFV enters a location with a enemy unit Ambush is N/A. Unless I am missing something ambush only occurs when "infantry" advance into a location.
The tank bypass is needed to prevent the 10-3 from routing upstairs; however, to kill the 10-2 (or to be sure of killing the 10-2), you need to advance in the squads as well. That advance will trigger the ambush dr's.
I think advancing in gives the German a far better chance at getting the ambush roll, and just withdrawing. He will have either a +2 or +3 modifier for the tank (which is necesary to place in the hex). With a +2 mod it is a 41.7% chance of just withdrawing if the squads advance in.
If the squads don't move in, the CC with the tank is:
In motion:
41.7% chance of killing the 10-3 outright, with another 16.7% chance of a CR, with a 33% chance of killing him = about a 47.3% of success.
Stopped:
72.2% chance of killing the 10-3 outright, with another 11.1% chance of the CR, giving a 75.9% chance of success - however, the tank can die first
Tank death:
CCV = 2, -1 for street fighting, so a 3 to kill = 2.8% chance of killing the tank outright, with another 5.5% chance of immobilizing it (which does nothing at this point).
Roll the tank in VBM, stop and take your chances on CC reaction fire, If you survive, the squads stay put, if you die, game over.
If the tank gets immobilized, then your death chance goes up to the full 8.3%, but that is still better than the ambush chance if you move the squads in.
I think advancing in gives the German a far better chance at getting the ambush roll, and just withdrawing. He will have either a +2 or +3 modifier for the tank (which is necesary to place in the hex). With a +2 mod it is a 41.7% chance of just withdrawing if the squads advance in.
You are assuming that no-quarter is in effect. If No Quarter is not in effect, it is simpler to use the two 447's to encircle the 10-3. Also, in order to get the mods you are claiming, the 10-3 will have to take fire. Finally, if all goes that way, if I were the russian, I would not bypass but overrun and chance the celler (with an equal chance of rubbling for the win). If the tank falls into the celler, it's crew still has a 25% chance of surviving for the same effect. It it bogs, the DRM are the same as if it were stopped in bypass.
The availablility of ATMM certainly affect the choice as well, and we are not told what year it is.
Jeff Leslie
10 Feb 03, 09:43
Here's some basic assumptions that have to be made:
1. The Germans already have control of the building.
2. The Russians will have to get an MMC into the building and get rid of any Armed German units (the 10-3 is one) to gain control of the building.
3. I'm interpreting the rules correctly.
If #3 is a bad assumption, then it will be garbage in - garbage out.
German:
Attempt to self rally the squad and get it into the building. If he does rally I'd wait until APh to get him in there, no hurry on that. If he doesn't rally, leave him DM in case he doesn't have a LOS to any KEU and rout him into the building if possible. I'd assault move the 10-3 into X1 to force the T34 into making CA changes to shoot at him in DFPh, taking a chance on the miss. The only way I'd attempt streetfighting is if I could get an ATMM with the 10-3, and the puzzle doesn't mention if this is 1944 or later. I'd rather just let the 10-3 sit tight in X1 and force the Russians to kick me out of there since killing the T34 in CC is a longshot.
If the Russian attempts INF OVR, he'll be trying it with a 3TC. Both squads can do it by going CX only. I would bet on the probability (I hate to use the word HOPE) that both Russian squads would end up in Y2 at the end of the MPh after failing their TC's, which would allow the broke German squad to rout into the building in X2, and then upstairs to X2.1 in the Russian RtPh to avoid elimination for failure to rout. Regardless, I would then voluntary break the 10-3 and rout him into X1.1 in the Russian RtPh, that way nobody could touch him at the end of the game, and that would leave the German still in control of the building.
It all revolves around the Russian not hitting anything with the T34 and also failing his INF OVR TC''s. If the T34 hits and/or even one of the MMC's passes the TC, then the Russian stands a good chance of getting at least one MMC into CC with the leader and eliminating him. The Russian also might want to get the T34 into a position where he could block the broke German squad from routing into the building.
Jeff L
You are assuming that no-quarter is in effect.
The availablility of ATMM certainly affect the choice as well, and we are not told what year it is.
The puzzle states No Quarter is in effect.
I am assuming ATMM are available. but too riskly for the German. The leader needs a 1 to get one, as long as he is not CX. The same odds of pinning. If he pins, he is dead, game over - i.e., you can now advnace all the squads in and he can not withdraw.
The broken unit is in a woods hex. In the original scan it was clear, but the unit and DM marker cover it up in the VASL screen capture.
For the sake of the discussion you guys can assume any year you want.
What really made this an interesting situation was the abbility for the leader to 'withdraw from ambush' during the streetfighting attempt when/if the tank entered in bypass. Gosh I hate that rule change.
ANSWER
Most of you hit on the key to this puzzle. Like I said, this was an easy one, but I've seen games and played in a few where my opponet didn't see his opportunity to win with just a single leader.
Here is the original answer I published: [anything in "[]" was added today]
------------
The key for the Germans is to have the 10-3 survive (broke or otherwise) in the building. Probably upstairs via rout or ambush withdrawal. The Russians must find a way to prevent this.
German Rally: try to rally the squad. Not likely but don't forget to try. A 4DR or less will do it.
German Prep Fire: Here is where the decision making starts. The 10-3 is not going to fear the 4-4-7s to much, a 4+3 isn't much of a shot, and even if the 10-3 has to take a 1 or NMC he is likely to pass them. The only concern is the tank. Right now the tank needs a 6 or less to hit the 10-3 in the building, which will result in a 12 even shot. Again barring a CH (the tank needs to roll snake eyes followed by a subsequent dr of 3 or less) the leader should be able to pass any MCs.
So does the leader try for a PF or does he wait to move out of harms way? He'll need a dr of 2 or less to get a PF. I'd wait and do nothing in the Prep Fire phase.
German Movement Phase: I would move the leader to X1 via bypass, on the X1, W2, X2 vertex of course. This would make the tank turn his TCA giving him an even less chance to hit in the Russian Defensive Fire Phase. And the leader could still try for a PF in the Advancing Fire Phase if you want. The other option is to give the Russians no shots at all and move the leader to W2. The only problem with this is that he will be CX when he advances back into the building. Someone suggested that the leader could move into crest status in this hex, but I'm not sure what benefit there is in doing that because he would still be CX advancing back into the building (1MF to move off crest, 1MF to move over the wall, and 2MF to enter the building).
Russian Defensive Fire: The only question here is what hex the tank should acquire if the leader is not in the building. It doesn't really matter as long as the tank changes his TCA to face W2. This way all guns (mg and main) could be brought to bear on each building hex.
German Advance Phase: Advance the leader back to X1 or X2, which ever one is not acquired by the tank. Do Not Advance the leader upstairs if he is still in the building!
Russian turn:
Russian Rally Phase: Nope.
Russian Prep Fire Phase: The squads will have to move so they obviously won't fire. However the Russian player has to decide what to do with the tank. He could fire the MG's and Main Gun now and lose any opportunity to move the tank into the building hex with the 10-3, which would prevent the 10-3 from voluntarily routing upstairs, but does give the leader a better chance at ambush. 12 fire power MG attack plus at least two shots with the main Gun if it doesn't break on the first shot. No reason not to Intensive Fire at this point. However, even if the 10-3 breaks from the tank shots, it isn't over yet because the leader will just rout upstairs and deny the Russians sole occupation of the building. Therefor if the tank fires, the only good result would be a dead 10-3; not likely. Moving the tank is an option that needs to be considered and in fact the best solution in this case, so for this argument we will move the tank.
Russian Movement: First off the squads. One of them must move into the empty building hex. Since it is a rowhouse, the Russians must at least enter every hex of it in order to gain control. The good news is that they can do this without going CX. The second squad could move CX and try an infantry overrun vs. The 10-3. Not a guaranteed thing as he will need to pass NTC with a 3 or less (+3 building TEM and +1 CX)! Or should the last squad forget the CX and just move adjacent where he could move into the hex for CC? If you don't think a 4-1 odds in CC is good enough then you better not CX the second squad.
Now the tank will move into the building hex with the 10-3. The only question is what does he do, move into the building or in bypass. Both options will keep the 10-3 from routing upstairs. If the tank moves into the building he will risk crashing through the cellar, and if he is in bypass the 10-3 can try a PF TH attempt with an 8 or less if the leader has one and eats the Backblast. The other problem with bypass is the leader would qualify for ambush and could thus withdraw upstairs denying the Russians a chance to kill him in CC (there is a unofficial Q& A that is confusing in this matter, but I remember talking to ‘Mac' and a few others back at a past ASLOK and ‘Mac said' it was legal for the squad to withdraw upstairs before any Ambush drs are made because he qualifies for Ambush). Even if the tank moves into the building and survives the bog/cellar DR it would give the leader a +2 Ambush drm and if the leader ambushes the units in his hex once again he withdraws upstairs.
[Ok, we all know that MMP changed the rule to disallow Ambush Withdrawal in this situation.]
Rout Phase: If the Russian tank Prep Fired instead of moved and the Russian squad didn't succeed with the infantry overrun then the leader should break and rout upstairs. This would seal the German victory because the Russians don't have sole occupation of the building.
Russian Advance Phase: Simple, advance the Russian squads into the leaders hex if the tank is in there or if the German player didn't rout upstairs.
Close Combat Phase: At this point a lot depends on the Ambush dr. If the German leader wins it (if the tank is in bypass, it is easier) then he should withdraw upstairs and the game is over, if not then he needs to cross his fingers bigtime!
Three posts you mentioned we changed, or how much you hate, the "rules change", Louie.
We get the point. You don't like it.
Three posts you mentioned we changed, or how much you hate, the "rules change", Louie.
We get the point. You don't like it.
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