Sharing Dice with your Opponent

[trevpr1]

You may want to check out Gambler's General Store. Their precision backgammon dice are $10.00 a pair. I've bought from them and happy with their products.

http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/search.php?search_term=backgammon&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=submit


Those squared off precision dice look very nice. I might get myself some sticks. I hope they ship to the Yookay.

[Steven Pleva]

The gamblersgeneralstore dice are 5/8". Those are awfully big. Make sure your rolling apparatus can handle them properly. You want good action and in this case, size matters...

For my dice towers, I like the 12 or 13mm dice from here:
http://www.bgshop.com/index-cubes.htm
Prices are pretty good.

Cheers,
Steve

[Morbii]

Ah - I use bgshop's as well. Haven't been disappointed with them.

[James Taylor]

Ever since I stole the mojo from Mudge's pink & whites I've been a dice sharing kind of guy.

Whatsamatta... don't you want me to rub a little mojo on your dice?

JT

[Faded 8-1]

The world will not be safe from you dice-sharin' hippies until somebody invents the scrotum-mounted dice holster. Extreme measures are called for! :laugh:

[Paul M. Weir]

How about a dice tower with the base filled with disinfectant?

[dlazov]

Heck just fill the bottom of the dice tower with rubbing alcohol and all will be well. As each player picks up the dice to roll he can rub the dice around in his hands prior to throwing them in the top of the dice tower.

[Whizbang1963]

I have run into this at tournaments a few times. Opponents who insist that we both use the same dice. I don't know whether they are concerned about loaded dice or what. But I carry a little tin of dice, I have a personal relationship with each and every one of them, they will just as easily burn me as save my a$$. After consitantly rolling 9s for awile I might change to another set looking for the love. I just hate the idea of a set of my dice, which I have nurtured through good times and bad, beating me. They would probobly have to be taken right out and executed. Your thoughts.:(

touch my dice, I kill ya, I have a large VOSS water bottle 3/4 full of 12mm Chessex in a variety of colors. If get tired of a pair, I pull out two more.

When I really get tired of a pair they go into the retired dice container. Not sure what I'll ever do with them. Smashing with a hammer is such a waste. Using a blowtorch to melt them together into some modern art scultpure has been suggested but I'm not sure I'm into that. So for now they sit off by themselves in an old blank recordable bulk DVD holder.

Will use my own dice. Not yours. Seems silly to insist that both sides use the same dice. It's not like we're South Korean video gamers getting paid to play ASL for a living. If someone's going to cheat, the dice are probably the last thing you have to worry about.

[Steven Pleva]

If someone's going to cheat, the dice are probably the last thing you have to worry about.

I'm not worried about someone intentionally cheating. I'm worried about someone using bad dice because they don't care enough to make sure they are fair. I don't insist on using the same dice, I do insist on either high quality dice or sharing. It's your pick...

Steve

[Steven Pleva]

BTW, since I've probably studied the "science" of dice rolling the most around here, I thought I'd share my general findings:
1) Rounded edges are better than razor edges for randomization. If the dice tumble enough, then either will do. The goal here is plenty of random "action".
2) Once a die takes visible damage including excessive wear, it should be retired. Hard glass can beat up a cheap die faster than you think. Once a die is damaged, who knows what tendencies it will have. Once a die starts chipping, it tends to continue to do so.
3) Dice glasses should have a thick bottom. The extra mass will make the dice bounce more getting better randomization. The goal is "action".
4) The diameter of the inside of the bottom of a dice glass should be at least 6-8 times the size of the dice. Otherwise, the dice may not bounce around enough. The more rounded the dice, the more relaxed this rule becomes. Dice cups should follow similar guidelines. Once again, the goal is "action".
5) My dice towers (and most I've seen) are tuned for about 9/16" or 1/2" dice. Bigger dice may not get enough action while smaller dice may come out too "hot" and jump the tray.
6) No matter what you roll in, it is always good form if the dice hit your palm between every roll. I've seen patterns in cups and towers when the dice are picked up between two fingers and dropped straight in. Nothing is worse than the dice glass "tickle" where the dice, while lying at the bottom of the glass, are lightly flipped by the fingertips and barely move above the bottom of the glass.

Obviously, JMHO...
Steve

[Spencer Armstrong]

I said a couple pages back that I was going to test my dice before letting them back in the dice storage Plano.

For background, I have been using a mix of ball and straight 7/16" dice (the 8 from my two BVs and about fifteen-twenty more as well as a dozen frosted Chessex of a similar size).

In front of football, I tested four with ball corners and four with straight corners, 500 rolls each, 95% tolerance. Seven passed, one failed. With 90% tolerance, one more would have failed. The 95% failer was a straight edge die. The 90% failer was one of the ball-cornered Chessex ones.

A couple observations:

I can see imprecision in some of these, including the 90% failer, as well as a couple that passed. If I can see it with my eye, I can't believe that's a fair die.

Several of the dice seemed to favor one "half" of the die. That is, if you set it on a corner, the three numbers to the bottom seemed to be favored. I don't have great numbers to back that up, but it seemed so. If I really looked at the numbers, I might be able to show something.

The number 3 was under-represented. Not only did it account for only 15.38 percent of results, it was the least rolled number on 5 of 8 dice. That probably means little, but seemed odd.

These are observations, not 100% conclusions. Given the likely requirement of 1000+ rolls per die, I don't want to pretend to be surer than I really am entitled to be.

That said, when I read that someone thought their opponent at ASLOK's dice had been wonky, my first thought was "man, I had that one game my dice were really weird. I sure hope that wasn't me." And so I decided, y'know, the appearance of propriety really does matter. And, heck, I've spent thousands of bucks on this hobby, what's fifty or a hundred bucks more to have dice I believe (and my opponents will believe) are fair? I'd rather never have anyone think "I don't know about his dice."

So I ordered five ball-cornered (because I don't like the straight edged ones. Thanks for backing that play up, Steve!) from the backgammon place a bunch of folks have linked to. I will give then 1000 roll tests and if/when they pass and I decide I love them, I'll get another five (beauty of free shipping). Then I'll have a red-orange set to go with my blue set.

S

[hershmeister]

the big precison dice roll beautifully through the pleva dice tower and are super easy to read for both players - even from a distance! Get a set of white and red and you are in business.

heck - go to Las Vegas and buy them in person and enjoy the full Vegas experience! Thats what I did!

Steves smaller dice do have more "zip" coming down the tower and sort of spin back like a good golf shot after the hit the wall - either way the precision dice are the way to go. Thats the "action" he is referring to.

QUOTE=Steven Pleva;1236559]The gamblersgeneralstore dice are 5/8". Those are awfully big. Make sure your rolling apparatus can handle them properly. You want good action and in this case, size matters...

For my dice towers, I like the 12 or 13mm dice from here:
http://www.bgshop.com/index-cubes.htm
Prices are pretty good.

Cheers,
Steve[/QUOTE]

[pward]

The worst imperfection that dice can get would be to not have equal dimensions. That definitely skews results in some direction, depending on which faces are on the "short" side. The link I posted above has links to two short bits on dice by Zochi, the one that seems most relevant is his 'brick', which over exaggerates the differences between a die that's got different measurements on it's three dimensions. Look at a brick and think which two sides are most likely to come up if it were rolled. (Or a 2x4 cut 6" long...)

Same sort of thing on the corner rounding, contrary to Steve's observations above. If one face has more rounded corners, it is however slightly, more likely to continue rolling to some other face. Look into "shaving" dice as a cheat. It's not about reducing the dimensional measurements of the dice, but rather trimming the corners a bit to influence how often the die lands with that side face down.

Take a look at the precision backgammon dice, which do have rounded edges and corners. One thing you notice is that all the radii are consistent for all edges and all corners. Craps dice take a different approach, hard edges are easier to spot check for abuse/alteration by holding two dice together. If you do that with a pair of backgammon dice, you should see that the faces are all the same size when mated together. Try it with a BV dice pair and you may be able to spot differences with the ol' mk-1 mod-1 eyeball...

[CHERDE]

The gamblersgeneralstore dice are 5/8". Those are awfully big. Make sure your rolling apparatus can handle them properly. You want good action and in this case, size matters...

For my dice towers, I like the 12 or 13mm dice from here:
http://www.bgshop.com/index-cubes.htm
Prices are pretty good.

Cheers,
Steve

This is the correct shop.
I ordered 13 mm dice, ball pointed, for € 13.- and recieved them after ten days (shipping from the continent of UK to the European continent).

I would like to have 11 mm precision dice, ball pointed. I heard from a casino pro/croupier that the more a die can move the more random is the result. Small dice move more. On this reason I am fond of shaking dice in leather cups and on this reason I am not so fond of dice towers.

Has anyone 11 mm precision dice, ball pointed?

[pward]

You can shake up the 2x4x6 all you want, to get a more random result... It's still going to land on the largest face (the 4x6 face) far more often because it's not cubic. For very small differences in dice dimensions it's probably not statistically significant, but if you can see the difference with your own eyes, it does raise some questions.

On precision dice, the randomness should be the same unless the throw is consistent as well as the initial starting position of the dice within the hand. Check the rules for a "legal throw" at a casino. Hitting the far end of the table, and the way the dice are held and thrown should be imparting far more into the unpredictability of the result than how far they keep rolling. (Notice I said unpredictability, vs randomness...)

[McFinn]

Wow,

I'm amazed at the amount of disscussion.

I learned to share in kindergarten.

You want to use my dice, no prob. I've often used my opponents dice and never had anyone give me grief over it. It is after all a game.

With regard to those who are concerned about germs. Do you only use your counters? Mapboards? does your opponent have to bring his own? You don't pull from a common pile of info markers?

Just curious, I've just never encountered anyone who would not share, dice, game pieces, mini's, etc in many years of gaming.

I never thought it would even be a topic of disscussion until I came upon this thread.

Is it common amongst the ASL tourney going crowd to not share dice or game sets? I've been playing ASL for 20+ years and never made it to an ASL tourney. (I've been to a number of "generic" game conventions).

I know as ASL'ers we tend toward the obessive (complex game, counter organization, scenario balance, IFT vs IIFT, even Dice Tower vs Dice cup vs Free Roll) but its just so far out of my experiance that I never thought that sharing ASL gear and dice would be an issue.

[Bob Miller]

Wow,

I never thought it would even be a topic of disscussion until I came upon this thread.

I know as ASL'ers we tend toward the obessive (complex game, counter organization, scenario balance, IFT vs IIFT, even Dice Tower vs Dice cup vs Free Roll) but its just so far out of my experiance that I never thought that sharing ASL gear and dice would be an issue.

Welcome to the neighborhood pal. Some of these ASLers are wound so tight they crap diamonds. So anal they brought their ASL stuff on their honeymoon. So warped I actually witnessed an ASL player at ASLOK at the old hotel spend $15.00 on a pair of dice and later in the same week as he was walking to the Dunkin Donuts across the parking lot, SPIT in a eye of a homeless guy begging for change. Pretty sad stuff.

OK, so I was wrong about the homeless guy. Maybe that was spooge in the eye of a lapdancer at the strip club. I get confused.

[Fort]

Welcome to the neighborhood pal. Some of these ASLers are wound so tight they crap diamonds. So anal they brought their ASL stuff on their honeymoon. So warped I actually witnessed an ASL player at ASLOK at the old hotel spend $15.00 on a pair of dice and later in the same week as he was walking to the Dunkin Donuts across the parking lot, SPIT in a eye of a homeless guy begging for change. Pretty sad stuff.

OK, so I was wrong about the homeless guy. Maybe that was spooge in the eye of a lapdancer at the strip club. I get confused.

I'd spit in your eye if you reached for my dice, hombre. Soon as I figure out how to get Obama to gimmie a 'Bubble Boy' suit I won't have to breathe any of ya'll's foul stench or germs. ;)

[Fort]

Wow,

I'm amazed at the amount of disscussion.

I learned to share in kindergarten.

You want to use my dice, no prob. I've often used my opponents dice and never had anyone give me grief over it. It is after all a game.

With regard to those who are concerned about germs. Do you only use your counters? Mapboards? does your opponent have to bring his own? You don't pull from a common pile of info markers?

Just curious, I've just never encountered anyone who would not share, dice, game pieces, mini's, etc in many years of gaming.

I never thought it would even be a topic of disscussion until I came upon this thread.

Is it common amongst the ASL tourney going crowd to not share dice or game sets? I've been playing ASL for 20+ years and never made it to an ASL tourney. (I've been to a number of "generic" game conventions).

I know as ASL'ers we tend toward the obessive (complex game, counter organization, scenario balance, IFT vs IIFT, even Dice Tower vs Dice cup vs Free Roll) but its just so far out of my experiance that I never thought that sharing ASL gear and dice would be an issue.

Next sleep over...bring your toothbrush...I wanna try out it's bristles. ;)

[Faded 8-1]

Wow,

I'm amazed at the amount of disscussion.

I learned to share in kindergarten.

What kind of faggity commie kindergarten did you attend? :D


With regard to those who are concerned about germs. Do you only use your counters? Mapboards? does your opponent have to bring his own? You don't pull from a common pile of info markers?

We can use my boards, my counters... pretty much all my gear... you can even use other dice from my dicebag if you like... but you aren't sharing the dice I'm using that game. I like to hold my dice and play with them when I'm not rolling them. Just a habit I've acquired over three decades of gaming. I find it (very) annoying to have to ask for my own dice. It's simply more practical for each player to use his own set of dice AFAIC. I see no reason to share my dice with you just because sharing gives you the warm fuzzies. Or because you are paranoid about 'bad' dice.



Is it common amongst the ASL tourney going crowd to not share dice or game sets? I've been playing ASL for 20+ years and never made it to an ASL tourney. (I've been to a number of "generic" game conventions).

I've been to several, and have never encountered a single soul who wanted to share dice. Everyone's always had their own dice.

As far as boards and counters and stuff, it makes no difference who's stuff is used. Whoever already has his gear sitting out, most likely.

Everyone I've played against had their own rulebook and charts. Again, not out of selfishness or general dislike for sharing, but because it is more practical (both players can look up stuff at the same time).



I know as ASL'ers we tend toward the obessive (complex game, counter organization, scenario balance, IFT vs IIFT, even Dice Tower vs Dice cup vs Free Roll) but its just so far out of my experiance that I never thought that sharing ASL gear and dice would be an issue.

Believe it or not, some people are different than you. Amazing, but true.

[Jeff Waldon]

I don't see it as a lack of willingness to share and I think it is a perfectly reasonable topic for discussion. We are all raised differently. It just seems a matter of protocol when playing individual vice team sports/games.

I am perfectly willing to share dice with my opponent. However when someone expects to use the SAME set of dice I am using during a game I consider it bad form. It is a matter of convenience, trust and sportsmanship to me.

If we are shooting trap you are welcome to use one of my shotguns, you choose first, but don't expect for us to share a shotgun. The same holds true of any individual game/sport, I am more than willing to share what I have so we can enjoy it together, but don't expect to use the baseball glove, fishing pole, running shoes etc, etc, ad nauseum that I am using.

Jeff

[CHERDE]

Sharing the same dice is simply not practical.

It consumes time.

It makes it impossible to recheck the IFT attack DR for ROF, SAN
after the Defender rolled his MC/TC.

Better every player uses his own (or borrowed) dice set.

[McFinn]

Fort said:

"Next sleep over...bring your toothbrush...I wanna try out it's bristles."

So you equate your ASL dice with items that actually get put in orifices of your body? And it's my kindergarten that's being called faggity?:nuts: :D

Faded 8-1 said:

"Believe it or not, some people are different than you. Amazing, but true."

I think you may have missed my point, I understand folks are different from me. It's just that I've been gaming 30+ years, been to dozens of coventions, run many events, and have never run into anyone (with one exception) who wouldn't share dice. So with my experiance with a sample size of hundreds of gamers I was suprised to so many folks in this thread with concerns about sharing dice.

[Barryrk]

To add my .02 cents-I don't think sharing is bad (the nuns in grade school taught me -RULER=BAD) Tho sharing the same pair of dice with my opponent is bad. if you get snakes on a timely roll and I get boxcars with MY dice, I may feel obligated to send the dice to the Burn pile. I think it's a karma, joss ,fate kind of feeling. No disrespect intended. To that end I have plenty of dice to share... just don't ask to use the ones I'm using.

[Fort]

Fort said:

"Next sleep over...bring your toothbrush...I wanna try out it's bristles."

So you equate your ASL dice with items that actually get put in orifices of your body? And it's my kindergarten that's being called faggity?:nuts: :D

Faded 8-1 said:

"Believe it or not, some people are different than you. Amazing, but true."

I think you may have missed my point, I understand folks are different from me. It's just that I've been gaming 30+ years, been to dozens of coventions, run many events, and have never run into anyone (with one exception) who wouldn't share dice. So with my experiance with a sample size of hundreds of gamers I was suprised to so many folks in this thread with concerns about sharing dice.

You can use any of my dice you want...except the ones I am currently using. It is inconvenient and tantamount to calling your opponent untrustworthy to insist on using the dice he is using...IMHO.

[BrandonPDX]

I will play with any kind of dice but sharing the same dice makes absolutely no sense to me. I don't believe in lucky dice or mojo or what have you. If I was playing against someone I had just met, I would gladly let them pick the dice we use or even switch dice with me at any point, but sharing the same dice makes no sense because you need to remember ROF, turret hits, Sniper, etc.

I am unnerved by any type of psychological game play so if my opponent wants to waste time and energy worrying about stuff like that, be my guest. I'll be sitting over here figuring out the best way to accomplish my objectives.

[Morbii]

You can use any of my dice you want...except the ones I am currently using. It is inconvenient and tantamount to calling your opponent untrustworthy to insist on using the dice he is using...IMHO.

I don't necessarily want to share mine either, but it's not calling your opponent trustworthy so much as it is saying "I want us to have the same luck factor". I don't buy the untrustworthy argument for one second. It's a red herring or projection (or both), but I suppose it does also depend on who's asking...

[Fort]

I don't necessarily want to share mine either, but it's not calling your opponent trustworthy so much as it is saying "I want us to have the same luck factor". I don't buy the untrustworthy argument for one second. It's a red herring or projection (or both), but I suppose it does also depend on who's asking...

I don't buy any other excuse...if you're so superstitious that you want to inconvenience both players then I'd just as soon not play. I think exactly the opposite...the only red herring is saying anything but..."I don't trust you or your dice so I'm gonna make us both uncomfortable by insisting we play by my rules and only my rules."

[Morbii]

I don't buy any other excuse...if you're so superstitious that you want to inconvenience both players then I'd just as soon not play. I think exactly the opposite...the only red herring is saying anything but..."I don't trust you or your dice so I'm gonna make us both uncomfortable by insisting we play by my rules and only my rules."

So you're content with playing by YOUR rules and only YOUR rules. I see :P

[Faded 8-1]

So you're content with playing by YOUR rules and only YOUR rules. I see :P

SOP at tourneys, unless it's changed since my last one, is for players to bring and use their own dice. So it's not really Fort's rules - it's just the way it's normally done. It's the status quo.

The people who now want to invoke a paradigm shift to requiring precision dice/sharing dice are the one's trying to change the rules, as it were.

Maybe this is something TDs should address. If they want to require dice-sharing if one player demands it then that should be decided and publicized before the tourney. Otherwise, nobody should be obligated to share dice.

Could save a lot of whining from both sides if everyone knows where they stand going in.

[Morbii]

SOP at tourneys, unless it's changed since my last one, is for players to bring and use their own dice. So it's not really Fort's rules - it's just the way it's normally done. It's the status quo.

The people who now want to invoke a paradigm shift to requiring precision dice/sharing dice are the one's trying to change the rules, as it were.

Maybe this is something TDs should address. If they want to require dice-sharing if one player demands it then that should be decided and publicized before the tourney. Otherwise, nobody should be obligated to share dice.

Could save a lot of whining from both sides if everyone knows where they stand going in.

But the back and forth in this thread doesn't really have to do with the currnet SOP of tourneys. It has to do with sharing dice, whether or not a tourney allows/enforces it (as an aside, I'm fine with the current SOP of not sharing dice personally, but that doesn't mean there isn't a better way of doing it). Fort's assertion that people that want to share dice had to play by their own rules and no one elses after stating that he'd never share dice.. well.. we have a word for that. I still see the "you don't trust me" as an excuse. Don't get me wrong though, I'm OCD and really don't want people touching my dice either.

[Steven Pleva]

You can use any of my dice you want...except the ones I am currently using. It is inconvenient and tantamount to calling your opponent untrustworthy to insist on using the dice he is using...IMHO.

I trust the people I'm playing. I don't necessarily trust the dice that everyone bring. I've tested many dice and there are more bad dice out there than you think. This week, I'm going to test my old blue and yellow BV dice to see where they lie...

[Fort]

I don't trust precision dice. My psychic told me they were bad luck for me. I am bringing old TSR dice with the numerals instead of pips, and ones that have well rounded sides to indicate they are veterans...My psychic also told be to alternate the direction each counter faces 180 degrees as I go from east to west on the mapboard....and all the tables I play on MUST have my seat facing Texas.

Anyone wanna play? :p

[Hovned31]

I don't like sharing dice. I have been using the same set of dice for years (Chessex Artic camo for the white dice and a green camo and funky red camo for the colored dice), I tend to rotate through them as the game goes on. They seem to be fair dice-I've never felt they were "loaded" one way or another.

I don't like the idea of sharing dice because one of my regular opponents uses those giant 30 sided dice to keep track of vehicle MPs spent and he frequently makes suggestions about shoving that 30 sided die up a certain orifice when things aren't going well. God knows where that die has been.

[Kevin Kenneally]

So what are the best dice to use during ASL scenario play?

The dice with:

Rounded corners.

Semi-rounded corners.

Fully square corners.

Dice that might hang in the windshield of a Chevy Impala? :p

[rdw5150]

I really do not think that TDs need to worry about this. Come on folks, its a freaking game:smoke:

I have been asked to share dice twice (once because the guy had no dice at all) and both times I outlined why I do not like sharing dice:

1. I need to refer back to dice as my memory sucks (RoF, hit location, etc)
2. It slows down the game
3. I am supersititious

<SHUG>

I pulled out my cup o' dice (let them pick some cubes) and a spare dice glass for them, and we were on our way.

I just do not think its a big deal. But that is just me. I have never once thought to myseld, "man he is on a roll, those dice must be off" during a game.

Though I must admit, I think the SP dice might be off. There is just a lot cut out of the SP emblem.

Peace

Roger

[rdw5150]

I trust the people I'm playing. I don't necessarily trust the dice that everyone bring. I've tested many dice and there are more bad dice out there than you think. This week, I'm going to test my old blue and yellow BV dice to see where they lie...

Hi!

OK so they are off, but how much? How much is this going to really effect a game, maybe one or two rolls out of a couple hundred?

Seriously I am not ball busting just wondering that if they are off slightly how much does that effect the game itself. And who is to say that they are not off to roll badly instead of well.

How can you test that effect on the game itself. If a die is off, but off on the "wrong" sides and will roll one too many 6's in a 100 rolls instead of one too many 1's then you want your opponent using them corect:laugh:

Peace

Roger

[pward]

Dice have no memory, they also lack any sort of senses to know which player is using them.

There is something to the idea that using the same pair makes whatever imbalance the dice may have equal for both parties. Then again, you could end up on the wrong end of this "balance" as well:

Player 1: "Woohooo Heat of battle, followed by battle harden and hero creation!!!"
Player 2: "Wow, heat of pin"

[Steven Pleva]

OK so they are off, but how much? How much is this going to really effect a game, maybe one or two rolls out of a couple hundred?

Well, I suspect most dice are ever so slightly off. I agree, who cares about those? I'm talking about those dice because that variance is probably unnoticeable in an ASL scenario. However, some of the dice I've tested aren't slightly off, they are severely off. Right now, after 200 rolls, my blue BV die is on the bubble. I'll do some more testing this week and let you know what the result is.

The bottom line for me is that I don't want to have to worry about the dice. I just want to play the scenario. However, I won't turn a blind eye to the issue. My preference is for both sides to use identical dice. Therefore, on every match, I will offer my opponent his choice of my precision dice. Seems fair and reasonable to me. If my opponent has two sets of quality dice, I'd be happy to use one of them as well. I don't think even Mr Fortencranky could argue with that position... :bite:

Steve

[Fort]

I don't think even Mr Fortencranky could argue with that position... :bite:

Steve

Wanna bet? ;)

[rdw5150]

>I don't think even Mr Fortencranky could argue with that position...

We are ASLers, we can argue anything to death my friend!:laugh::clown::nuts:

Peace

Roger

[Fort]

>I don't think even Mr Fortencranky could argue with that position...

We are ASLers, we can argue anything to death my friend!:laugh::clown::nuts:

Peace

Roger

ASLers ain't got crap on MTG pukes.

[rdw5150]

ASLers ain't got crap on MTG pukes.

thank God I stopped the MTG addiction before it got way out of hand..... I miss the game, but do not miss the other stuff that went along with it.

Peace

Roger

[Kevin Kenneally]

ASLers ain't got crap on MTG pukes.

Gary,

Be careful. You almost said a bad word (MTG)..... :p

[Steven Pleva]

Okay, I've done a bunch of testing and investigating and this is what I found. Each die is scored based on what threshold was necessary to deem it acceptable. The lower this value is, the better the die. Finally, I translated each score into a qualitative value based on my judgment. Even a die that fails could be fair and a die that 'passes' could be unfair.

Eight dice tested:
Chessex 12mm - 400 rolls - 95% - Suspect
Schwerpunkt logo 5/8" - 400 rolls - 91% - Questionable
Precision 1/2" - 300 rolls - 61% - Good
Skull logo 5/8" - 300 rolls - 52% - Good
Small MMP - 102 rolls - 91% - Needs more testing
Old style 5/8" - 102 rolls - 99.5% - POS
Original BV blue - 402 rolls - 91% - Questionable
Original BV yellow - 402 rolls - 88% - Passed, but not with confidence

After testing, I began to wonder about the manufacturing of the dice. I pulled out my calipers and measured the squareness of each face. The precision die was exact to within the limits of my calipers (about 0.0005"). The Old style die was horribly off and I knew that going in. I ignored this die when drawing my conclusions. The MMP die had a variance of about 0.01" and all the other dice varied by about 0.005". The MMP die concerns me because the variation was over 2% (the other dice were around 1%. Basically, except for the precision die, they were not cubes and there was no rhyme or reason or consistency to the variation. Some faces were trapezoidal, some rectangles and others were square. I suspect that all the non-precision dice were in a tumbler as per the video up thread.

Conclusion: Non-precision dice are not cubes and must have some bias. The question remains as to what the effect of this bias is. I suspect that this bias varies from insignificant to material. The only way to know for sure is to test the dice. It appears that bigger dice are better than smaller dice because the manufacturing variance will have less of an effect. I'll stick with precision dice due to their superior cubeness...

Steve

[hershmeister]

mmmm...... Superior Cubeness......

PS: All you guys who wont share dice because

a) You like to "fondle them" and they are your "binky"
b) Believe that somehow the dice are out to "get you"
c) never learned a team sport that involved using the same ball

are officially weirdos

Steves gentlemanly solution of bringing two pairs of precision dice and letting your opponent choose one set and you use the other gracefully deals with the "shared dice" issue.

I have to admit sometime wondering about the super lows rolls of an opponent who is using some generic dice set that are his "favorite" and I too the time to bring a pair of precision dice to the game. As in many sports, the players should be using the same equipment or at least using equipment that meets a certain spec (i.e. golf ball diameter)

[Fort]

mmmm...... Superior Cubeness......

PS: All you guys who wont share dice because

a) You like to "fondle them" and they are your "binky"
b) Believe that somehow the dice are out to "get you"
c) never learned a team sport that involved using the same ball

are officially weirdos

Steves gentlemanly solution of bringing two pairs of precision dice and letting your opponent choose one set and you use the other gracefully deals with the "shared dice" issue.

I have to admit sometime wondering about the super lows rolls of an opponent who is using some generic dice set that are his "favorite" and I too the time to bring a pair of precision dice to the game. As in many sports, the players should be using the same equipment or at least using equipment that meets a certain spec (i.e. golf ball diameter)

You gonna bring a humidifier to make sure the moisture content is the same on both sides of the table? How about the ventilation...if one sides air is colder than the other that would mean the air is denser there...maybe an isolation bubble for the game...
Are you sure your precision dice are actually precise? Do you have a certificate of authenticity from the manufacturer, including manufacturing process...(just to be sure)?
Are you hands more moist than your opponents? I am sure the moisture residue on the dice after the sweaty guy rolls is a greater factor than manufacturing inconsistencies.
Is the dice tower you are using fairly oriented...maybe the dice going in at one angle roll differently than the dice going in from the opposite angle.

In short, for those sarcasm-impaired...I don't think this is a tempest in a teapot.

If you want to roll precision dice, knock yourself out.
Just don't bring your superstitions/hang-ups to a game and expect the other guy to bow to your demands.

BTW, 100 tests is WAY too small a sample to prove anything definitively.

n = 100 <=> B = 10%
n = 400 <=> B = 5%
n = 1000 <=> B = ~3%
n = 10000 <=> B = 1%

BTW
"a) You like to "fondle them" and they are your "binky"
b) Believe that somehow the dice are out to "get you"
c) never learned a team sport that involved using the same ball"

Your reading comprehension is lacking, these seem much more characteristic of the folks who WANT to force sharing the dice...Wolkey withstandng..he is a nutjob.

I suggest you go back and read this thread again..turn your sarcasm meter on...if you have one.

Btw, what team sport involves using different balls? and what the hell does it have to do with ASL and or Dice?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using two sets of dice, precision or otherwise, it makes the game go smoother...the dice lay in their last rolled results for all to see and refer too...there is no reaching across the table knocking counters askew...and you don't have to ask your opponent to give you your dice back so you can roll.

Steve can bring precision dice, and I would use them...just not the same pair...and they MUST be opaque. ;)

[Fort]

Even a die that fails could be fair and a die that 'passes' could be unfair.

So we're back to 'it just feels good'? ;)

[Steven Pleva]

So we're back to 'it just feels good'? ;)

No, there is always uncertainty. The best we can do is play the odds regarding testing. However, the caliper test comes without that certainty.

I agree that 100 tests is not nearly enough, but I ran out of time. I'm not suggesting you can draw a complete conclusion from those tests.

I just looked at the data on my BV yellow die and here's the number of times each number was rolled:
1 64
2 78
3 64
4 61
5 64
6 71

Using the calipers, the smallest face was the number 2 face. That is probably not a coincidence that the smallest face had the most occurrences.

I will concede that in most cases a die bias is probably very minor. However, why introduce any uncertainty when the option of using precision dice is readily available?

Steve

[hershmeister]

Fort - you are now just arguing to argue, but I am glad that you would agree to use a similar set of dice to ensure a fair game. As to your point about temperature conditions, etc - I would not DARE humidify a tourney room of ASLers - the stink level would reach deadly proportions in minutes....blech! Now an isolation bubble could be a plus, depending on your opponent;s gaseous state.....

PS: Baseball is a team sport which uses different balls throughout the game. Yet each one is made to the same specs. Golf in the Ryder cup format uses different balls for each player, but the same specs.

[Faded 8-1]

Golf in the Ryder cup format uses different balls for each player, but the same specs.

You sure about that?

In the President's Cup and Ryder Cup one of the main factors in setting pairings for the 2-ball matches is the golf ball, because each pro has their own ball with it's own properties and having to share a ball means that one of them has to use a ball with properties that are foreign to him.

All equipment has to meet a minimum standard. But it's not all made according to the same specs. Far from it, actually. Most pros use equipment that is specially designed just for them and their swing. That includes the balls.

Not that golf balls at the Ryder Cup have anything to do with ASL anyway. PGA golfers compete for millions of dollars. ASL players compete for the fun of it. And a placque. Not really comparable.

[hershmeister]

You sure about that?

In the President's Cup and Ryder Cup one of the main factors in setting pairings for the 2-ball matches is the golf ball, because each pro has their own ball with it's own properties and having to share a ball means that one of them has to use a ball with properties that are foreign to him.

All equipment has to meet a minimum standard. But it's not all made according to the same specs. Far from it, actually. Most pros use equipment that is specially designed just for them and their swing. That includes the balls.

Not that golf balls at the Ryder Cup have anything to do with ASL anyway. PGA golfers compete for millions of dollars. ASL players compete for the fun of it. And a placque. Not really comparable.


your use of the phrase "minimum standard" means the same as my use of the word "Specs" . Technically there is no minimum standard for a golf ball, but very specific measurements as to its size. You can make it out of a number of different materials and even vary the shape of the dimple pattern, but each ball must be the same in the most basic terms to ensure fairness. You may like a softer or harder ball, but they must be essentially the same.

The issue with the dice is that there is no standard, and so sometime some flaky dice get used. This is why both players should use the same exact type of dice if they can't get into the sharing a pair thing.

[Faded 8-1]

And as for being a wierdo...

You betcha! Damn proud of it too. We are all unique individuals, and therefore all wierdos in some way or another. Viva la difference.

[Faded 8-1]

This is why both players should use the same exact type of dice if they can't get into the sharing a pair thing.

And yet, in my experience, they don't. *shrug*

If I go to a tourney and play you or Steve, I will use your precision dice for that game if you provide me a set to use without having to share. I'll concede that much, since it seems to mean so much to you.

Beyond that, I promise nothing, because IMO it is a non-issue born more of paranoia than of actual necessity, and I'm just not concerned about it.

[Kevin Kenneally]

And as for being a wierdo...

You betcha! Damn proud of it too. We are all unique individuals, and therefore all wierdos in some way or another. Viva la difference.

I'm glad to have met the purple man in the 3D glasses.... :p

Weird*.... :clown:

[Steven Pleva]

And yet, in my experience, they don't. *shrug*

If I go to a tourney and play you or Steve, I will use your precision dice for that game if you provide me a set to use without having to share. I'll concede that much, since it seems to mean so much to you.

Beyond that, I promise nothing, because IMO it is a non-issue born more of paranoia than of actual necessity, and I'm just not concerned about it.

Necessity? Of course not. However, fairness is important to me.

I've played many matches where my opponent and I used separate dice and the dice were not the same type. Twice in close to 1000 games I've played someone with suspicious dice. In both cases, my opponent had some weird behavior around the dice. One case, I'm 99.9% certain the dice were loaded. I haven't seen this player in years. In the other case, my opponent had his "lucky" dice that I'll bet a paycheck were significantly unfair. Therefore, as the Albany TD I decided to ask people to start thinking about the fairness of their dice. When I am TD again in 2011, there will be a stricter standard because Albany attracts some of the best players in the world and I want everything as fair as possible to make sure all matches are a test of skill and nothing else. To me, the solution is simple - precision dice. Thankfully, many players are embracing the concept and complying on their own accord.

Remember, the calipers don't lie...

Cheers,
Steve

[rdw5150]

Post Deleted.....

Merry Christmas!

Peace

Roger

[Steven Pleva]

Roger,

Don't worry, the bark is much worse than the bite.

Merry Christmas to all of my fellow lunatics out there!

Steve

[Hovned31]

Necessity? Of course not. However, fairness is important to me.

I've played many matches where my opponent and I used separate dice and the dice were not the same type. Twice in close to 1000 games I've played someone with suspicious dice. In both cases, my opponent had some weird behavior around the dice. One case, I'm 99.9% certain the dice were loaded. I haven't seen this player in years. In the other case, my opponent had his "lucky" dice that I'll bet a paycheck were significantly unfair. Therefore, as the Albany TD I decided to ask people to start thinking about the fairness of their dice. When I am TD again in 2011, there will be a stricter standard because Albany attracts some of the best players in the world and I want everything as fair as possible to make sure all matches are a test of skill and nothing else. To me, the solution is simple - precision dice. Thankfully, many players are embracing the concept and complying on their own accord.

Remember, the calipers don't lie...

Cheers,
Steve

I must be missing something here. This is a game-there is no huge cash prize for winning, most of us know each other to some extent or another. If someone is going to knowingly use loaded dice then they are a douche bag ass hat and the rest of us should simply avoid that person and bar them from tourney's. My opponent is free to use any of their dice or any of my dice but I will not share dice during a game-sorry not going to happen. If I can't trust my opponent and they don't trust me then I don't want to play against someone who is so uptight. Get a life people, this is a game played for recreation and socialization-if it means more than that to you, I never want to play against you and you need to reexamine your priorities in life.

[Steven Pleva]

I must be missing something here. This is a game-there is no huge cash prize for winning, most of us know each other to some extent or another. If someone is going to knowingly use loaded dice then they are a douche bag ass hat and the rest of us should simply avoid that person and bar them from tourney's. My opponent is free to use any of their dice or any of my dice but I will not share dice during a game-sorry not going to happen. If I can't trust my opponent and they don't trust me then I don't want to play against someone who is so uptight. Get a life people, this is a game played for recreation and socialization-if it means more than that to you, I never want to play against you and you need to reexamine your priorities in life.

I hope no one is getting the wrong impression here. Just because a jerk shows up every decade or so, doesn't mean that the tourney scene is a dark place. To the contrary, the guys I meet and play at the tourneys are, as a rule, great guys. Usually, the games are played in a relaxed style and there is plenty of hootin' and hollerin'. I've played hundreds of guys and there is only one guy I wouldn't play again. No, I'm not naming him. Besides, I haven't seen this guy in some time so it's not an issue anyway. Whether you share dice or not, it's all good...

Steve

[Gen. Sosabowski]

I know myself well enough to know that I would be suspicious of a player in a tournament who diced several opponents in a row with the same "lucky" dice. I've never seen it happen with any game (much less in an ASL game), but I think I would be more than a little concerned if it did happen.

I put it into the category of "I'll worry about it when it happens." It's much easier on my constitution.

[Hovned31]

I hope no one is getting the wrong impression here. Just because a jerk shows up every decade or so, doesn't mean that the tourney scene is a dark place. To the contrary, the guys I meet and play at the tourneys are, as a rule, great guys. Usually, the games are played in a relaxed style and there is plenty of hootin' and hollerin'. I've played hundreds of guys and there is only one guy I wouldn't play again. No, I'm not naming him. Besides, I haven't seen this guy in some time so it's not an issue anyway. Whether you share dice or not, it's all good...

Steve

sorry if I seemed a bit harsh-it must be from having to put up with my cousin's teenaged kids for the past few days. I understand that dice may be unbalanced due to wear or a manufacturing defect. If this is an issue than I can see why a TD would want to standardize the dice. I have taken old dice out of use due to wear and if I had new dice that I suspected were unbalanced I'd stop using them. I would hope the rest of the ASL community would do the same. The thought of someone using loaded dice to cheat at ASL is really mind numbing to me. Glad it has never happened to me and it seems to be a very rare thing.

[Steven Pleva]

sorry if I seemed a bit harsh-it must be from having to put up with my cousin's teenaged kids for the past few days. I understand that dice may be unbalanced due to wear or a manufacturing defect. If this is an issue than I can see why a TD would want to standardize the dice. I have taken old dice out of use due to wear and if I had new dice that I suspected were unbalanced I'd stop using them. I would hope the rest of the ASL community would do the same. The thought of someone using loaded dice to cheat at ASL is really mind numbing to me. Glad it has never happened to me and it seems to be a very rare thing.

I think cheaters are extremely rare. I would wager there are guys who never thought about it and are using dice that are unfair. I'll even bet some of these unfair dice roll high rather than low. However, I have seen guys who bring a bunch of dice and roll a pair for awhile and will continue to roll them until they get a string of unlucky results and then they pitch them and grab another pair. This behavior would tend towards slowly weeding out the worst dice in favor of the better dice. If the manufacturing inconsistencies create a random bias (as a tumbler could conceivably create) then eventually this (almost certainly unintentional) Darwinian selection process would leave the dice that rolled low. Again, I don't think players are knowingly cheating and the bias of the average die is probably fairly benign in most cases. Some players don't care enough to be bothered with this and that is fine. Personally, I would prefer to know that my dice are fair and that I am not inadvertently cheating my opponent or myself.

Finally, there is great effort made to try and get scenarios as balanced as possible. Why not do the same for the dice considering the minuscule effort required?

Steve

[jpellam]

I have to agree. Is this game REALLY so important that we are worried about whether our opponent may have loaded dice?? It's just a game. A very fun game, but a game nonetheless. Just have fun!

This thread reminds me why I avoid Tournaments. If you are going to argue about the dice used in a game why bother. :laugh:

[SamB]

This thread reminds me why I avoid Tournaments. If you are going to argue about the dice used in a game why bother. :laugh:

I think you're missing an important point here... Arguing about dice almost NEVER happens.

Don't avoid touneys. You can find any style of game you want - especially at an "open" tourney like ASLOK.

Go, Play. You will have fun. Players range from Steve Pleva Class, to Sam Belcher Class and everything in between. You can find people who will play campaign scenarios, big scenarios, small scenarios... Any theater, and "style" of play.

I have ALWAYS enjoyed myself at a tourney - didn't matter what my win / loss record was. Like Steve, I've played HUNDREDS of games at tourneys. There is only one guy that I'd rather not play again. The FtF experience at a tourney is typically FAR more pleasant and fun than, oh, say - this forum. (this thread contains a darn sight more hissing and moaning than I've ever heard at a tourney.)

If you avoid tourneys, you are only missing a great deal. If we're both going to be at the same tourney, I'll gladly offer you a game and most likely your first win of the tourney to boot.

[Steven Pleva]

I think you're missing an important point here... Arguing about dice almost NEVER happens.

I've never seen an argument about dice at a tournament. We are just having fun mostly splitting hairs here in a solid thread hijack...

From my point of view, I would summarize this thread thusly:
Some people said they don't like to share dice. I'm totally cool with the idea as I think it is easier to play with separate sets of dice. I'm just asking the players that are insisting on playing with their own dice to please show some common courtesy and bring dice that are actually cubes... :bite:

Sam is right, tourneys are great place for experienced players and newbies to have fun games and learn a lot...

Steve

[Morbii]

I think cheaters are extremely rare. I would wager there are guys who never thought about it and are using dice that are unfair. I'll even bet some of these unfair dice roll high rather than low. However, I have seen guys who bring a bunch of dice and roll a pair for awhile and will continue to roll them until they get a string of unlucky results and then they pitch them and grab another pair. This behavior would tend towards slowly weeding out the worst dice in favor of the better dice. If the manufacturing inconsistencies create a random bias (as a tumbler could conceivably create) then eventually this (almost certainly unintentional) Darwinian selection process would leave the dice that rolled low. Again, I don't think players are knowingly cheating and the bias of the average die is probably fairly benign in most cases. Some players don't care enough to be bothered with this and that is fine. Personally, I would prefer to know that my dice are fair and that I am not inadvertently cheating my opponent or myself.

Finally, there is great effort made to try and get scenarios as balanced as possible. Why not do the same for the dice considering the minuscule effort required?

Steve

Well said. Interestingly, in the past I've felt like I've had some real dice losers (pretty much every set - they seem to get worse the more I roll them). I invested into precision dice and I haven't been happier. I no longer worry about them for the most part, even when I get a string of crappy luck (because it's random!).

[Psycho]

There is only one guy that I'd rather not play again.

Bite me, Sam! :angry:

[Hovned31]

This thread reminds me why I avoid Tournaments. If you are going to argue about the dice used in a game why bother. :laugh:

Don't avoid tournaments. I have never won anything and I really don't give a crap if I ever do. I tend to like open play tourneys like ASLOK. ASL is an escape for me and I just like to hang out with the guys and have a good time playing the best game invented by man. If you've never been to ASLOK-try and make it-it is worth the effort and you will meet some great people.