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Choowee
03 Jan 09, 08:09
The 12.7mm in SAW is really a nightmare for Soviet helos and troops. They tend to shred my Hips and Hinds like paper...it is my understanding that they were not effective against the armor of the Russian helos, which is why the US was so anxious to get Stingers deployed, without which the war was in the hands of the Soviets due to its airpower, especially the Hind. The 12.77 has a penetration of 12 versus the Hind armor of 14.

They also pick off troops at long range much better than any sniper rifle. The SVD, and snipers in general for that matter, seems rather useless in SAW as well.

Not complaining here, I am enjoying SAW, but am getting whooped in the rugged terrain by the Mujahideen. I certainly could do with more support in each scenario as fighting mano a mano in the mountains at even odds is not a recipe for victory. I am just looking for some answers or tips..

Blackcloud6
03 Jan 09, 09:15
The 12.7 with API-T will take heliciopters, including the Hind in real life if you get close. But when the Russians flew high and far away front eh 12.7s that is when the Stingers were needed to reach out and touch them.

The SVD sniper rifle is a rather crappy sniper rifle when compared to others.

TheBigRedOne
03 Jan 09, 10:16
Not knowing exactly the type of situation, it's really hard to say. How many hexes away from the HMG are your helos? I keep my helos as far away from HMG positions as I can. In the last tourney here I had several of my Russian helos disabled by the HMG, but never lost one outright.

As for the sniper rifle, I've had some success with it, all depends, again, on the situation. I use mine to supress the enemy and then take out the leaders. If they have cover or are in an improved position, as the Muj often were, then the rifle is less useful. Pick your shots carefully would be my advice.

Not complaining here, I am enjoying SAW, but am getting whooped in the rugged terrain by the Mujahideen. I certainly could do with more support in each scenario as fighting mano a mano in the mountains at even odds is not a recipe for victory. I am just looking for some answers or tips..

I think you are finding out exactly how the Russians felt. The thing I really enjoy about SAW is that you can almost feel how tough of terrain it is, and how hard the situation was for the Russians (and for the US troops currently). Much different feel for the game than the classic WWII/Korea scenarios. Fighting an enemy that can be anywhere and tend to be concealed very well while fighting on difficult terrain adds up to a tough fight....

Ozgur Budak
03 Jan 09, 11:25
Dshk can shoot down Hinds. It is not Hind's armor but speed and engagement range that make Mujahideen job tough. In SB level, players tend to (or forced to) fly Hinds within 5-6 hexes of the enemy positions. 5 hex is 200 meters and a Dshk gunner will have easier job targeting a slow flying object. In most of the cases Russian chopper pilots used to fly very low in the canyons to avoid Mujahideen AA fire. However game mechanics dont cover such detailed aircraft tactics.

Contrary to the belief in the Western hemisphere SVD is not a sniper rifle. It is actually a semi-automatic squad level marksmanship rifle similar to M-14. Its designed function is to supress enemy within 1000 meters range while assault elements deploy. Obscured terrain and unconventional warfare raised SVD to the level of sniper rifles because it has a fairly sufficient optics. In the game we defined two SVD versions; first one is the squad level marksmanship rifle which has lower lethality and other one is the sniper SVD which is used by experienced sniper teams. The latter has much higher lethality but because of balance issues it has limited usage in the game. Most of the SVDs are squad level marksmanship rifles.

-"The SVD, and snipers in general for that matter, seems rather useless in SAW as well."-

I believe it is the contrary. Sniper rifles are very effective in SB for not only killing leaders but pinning squads. Thats why we created two SVD versions. Because a sniper SVD largely in use of the Rusian squads would severly effect the game balance. Maybe the SVD you are refering is the squad level marksmanship version.

Choowee
04 Jan 09, 03:28
Thanks all for the answers! I will need to modify my tactics with the helos as admittedly often I fly too close for extra firepower, putting too much faith in my armor...

I am definitely feeling the frustrations of the Soviets in Afghanistan and now am developing new tactics to cope. Art imitates life, heh?!! :) Afghans are everywhere, well entrenched and aggressive. Great game!

Ozgur, I did not know about the SVD squad rifle. That would be what I was referring to. Good thing to know, thanks again.

Mike Cox
05 Jan 09, 13:25
Ditto Oz's explanation for both items.

With Hinds, I really try and keep them at max range, circling in and out as needed and am always wary of leaving a flank or tail shot open.

Once the heli's effectiveness drops below 75% I pull them out to be safe. Or if the useful weapons are used and MG's are below 50%. Not worth the risk.

I also try and toggle the hold fire on, so my helis do not waste ammo at long range. I like to make my punches count before heading for home.

jztemple
08 Jan 09, 08:18
Speaking of the DShK 12.7mm, has anyone won as the Soviets in scenario 010, "School is Closed"? I've tried three times and my best result was still a Major Defeat.

TheBigRedOne
08 Jan 09, 09:09
Speaking of the DShK 12.7mm, has anyone won as the Soviets in scenario 010, "School is Closed"? I've tried three times and my best result was still a Major Defeat.

No-one has reported it here, but there is one PBEM report on the Blitz. http://www.theblitz.org/scenarios/show_full_scenarios.php?scen=7750&game=114&ladder=10

Landser34 (Dennis) played and won as the Muj, maybe he can give some insight as to the balance of the game. The message board for the design team did a bit of purging at the start of the year, so I couldn't find the playtest reports on this game....

Mike Cox
09 Jan 09, 12:38
I went and looked at the scenario. I remember it causing some controversy during playtesting. Those Dshk's are set up and will mess you up if you come anywhere close.

JZ - I'll take a PBEM if you are game. You can have the Muj.

The obvious approach is a death trap.

jztemple
09 Jan 09, 13:08
JZ - I'll take a PBEM if you are game. You can have the Muj.

No thanks. I don't PBEM as I tend to switch interest in games pretty quickly and it would be very unfair to drop out of matches. I picked up Mass Effect a couple of days ago and am deep into it. I'm still tinkering with Squad Battles because I'm finding it a good gaming system to investigate; oddly enough I really enjoy that, probably more than actually playing the game.

Also, and this may sound weird to a lot of you, but I don't let to replay any individual scenario. I play games like I read books, I enjoy them but I don't re-read any since I have so many to go!


The obvious approach is a death trap.

I *did* go for the obvious approach and I think that's part of the entertainment value of the scenario. You learn so much more by failure than by success; I learned a lot from that scenario! Since then my mind has been contemplating the not-so-obvious approaches.

I've been reading The Soviet-Afghan War: How a Superpower Fought and Lost (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/070061186X). Like the Soviets, I'm having to learn new tactics to meet new situations.

Mike Cox
09 Jan 09, 13:41
Fair enough. I think you might gain a bit more insight into the engine with a few PBEM games, though I appreciate the up front "don't want to drop out".

TheBigRedOne
09 Jan 09, 14:07
Fair enough. I think you might gain a bit more insight into the engine with a few PBEM games, though I appreciate the up front "don't want to drop out".

I agree with this completely. I took on a completely different view of the series after I started to PBEM. You quickly learn that the tricks that you can use against the AI don't often cut it against someone hell bent on killing your troops. Opened my eyes to a new way of thinking about tactics and gameplay. Glad I took the leap.

Ozgur Budak
09 Jan 09, 16:32
Obvious aprroaches are generally not good for long life since they are also obvious for the enemy. Dont forget guys this is their country :) As Mike says Variable Ending would be fun for a pbem game. Most of the airmobile operations in SAW requires very delicate distribution of forces and simulatenous manuevres into different objectives. Landing a platoon in a wrong place or giving too many troops for a LZ can be unreversable errors.

jztemple
09 Jan 09, 20:53
I agree with this completely. I took on a completely different view of the series after I started to PBEM. You quickly learn that the tricks that you can use against the AI don't often cut it against someone hell bent on killing your troops. Opened my eyes to a new way of thinking about tactics and game play. Glad I took the leap.

There's a certain irony in this discussion. I started playing wargames (Tactics II) in 1963 when I was nine years old. For almost thirty years I played board wargames pretty much always solo, playing both sides, since I prefer the solitude and mental challenge. Yet during this time I always thought it would be great if, someday, there was a way I could play my "alternate" self. When computers first came in I dabbled in AI programming but never had the time or talent to do it well. In the 1990s computer wargaming really took off and I was in heaven.

I do know that a human opponent would give more of a challenge in trying to get a win. However, I like the problem-solving aspects of playing an in-depth computer wargame against the AI. It's good mental exercise.