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mb4329
09 Oct 07, 13:38
So, I having been playing off and on with PtF and messing around with the OOB editor to try and develop a full blown invasion scenario for Tarawa.

Realizing the time and effort involved figured I would check to see if anyone has actually done one yet (no sense reinventing the wheel). Does anyone know if there is a scenario for the full invasion out there?

Thanks,
Merrick

Glyn
09 Oct 07, 16:11
Not that I know of.. Though there maybe someone else who knows different.

Happy to test yours pbem though?:yummy::)

rahamy
09 Oct 07, 21:23
Not that I'm aware of...all the monster OOB's I have seen have been for Eagles Strike or Vietnam.

I thought about doing the same thing for Iwo Jima, but just haven't had the time. :upset:

Mike Cox
09 Oct 07, 22:49
I don't think anyone has done the full deal. I have only seen the various beaches if I recall... It is a hefty project. Good luck!

ps I have the begining of a monster oob. PM if you want it.

Ozgur Budak
10 Oct 07, 06:28
Tough effort. I must say scenarios bigger than battalion level are quite hard to design and play in SB. Hours of labour generally doesnt provide a worthy result.

FastPhil
10 Oct 07, 12:05
Not that I'm aware of...all the monster OOB's I have seen have been for Eagles Strike or Vietnam.

I thought about doing the same thing for Iwo Jima, but just haven't had the time. :upset:

Tarawa is bad enough but IWO?:nuts: Tarawa involves just the 2nd MARDIV but IWO involves 3rd, 5th, and 6th MARDIV if memory serves correctly.:eek:
We are not even talking about the CORPS units and other attached units.
Then you have to deal with the time frame. Tarawa was relatively short but IWO was not.:argh:

rahamy
10 Oct 07, 12:12
No worries, I have so many other things on my plate that I'll never realistically get to this!

TheBigRedOne
10 Oct 07, 12:36
I thought Rich was going to get the "Battle of the Bulge" ES scenario done first!

:clown:

mb4329
10 Oct 07, 20:44
Thanks for the all the feedback folks.

Yeah, it is a bit of a daunting prospect. I managed to get all the crew served weapons identified (as best as I could) and added to the map. I was lucky as I have a copy of the D-2 Situation map from the US Naval Archives and that provide some good info.

I suspect that the actual placement of the Marines, SNLF, etc. is going to be what does me in. I am poaching a bit of the OOB from a CS scenario and trying to match it up a bit with the ASL version. If any one has a good tips or tricks to getting an OOB in place feel free to share.

Merrick

MarkDV
10 Oct 07, 21:03
A good read to help you would be UTMOST SAVAGERY.

It's about the USMC and the battle of Tarawa.

And technically, the SNLF people were good at weapons, but as INF they weren't really Japanese Marines. That, coupled with a military culture that didn't push the initiative and the bombardments effect on communications...well, it didn't take the 1,000,000 and thousand years of Kobayashis boast but 1,000 KIA (997 to be exact) and 5,000 plus wounded and 72 hours to take the island.

Good luck with your project....

Mark DV
Ada, MI

FastPhil
11 Oct 07, 12:36
If memory serves me, the Official History U.S. Marine Corps in WWII has a very good map of the Japanese initial setup on Betio down to 12.7mm I believe. The infantry setup will be harder. The other problem is how to build in the shore bombarbment that occured prior to the landing. Also Betio's defense was set up for a landing from the ocean not the lagoon. Here is a site that might be of interest to you. http://www.nps.gov/archive/wapa/indepth/extContent/usmc/pcn-190-003120-00/sec1.htm

mb4329
12 Oct 07, 21:15
Yes, Col. Alexander's book is a good read. He also put out and abridged version that looks to be the core behind the link the FastPhil referenced. Utmost Savagery and ASL's Tarawa module is what has "inspired" me to try and get something into PtF.

The D-2 Intel map shows the disposition of weapons and was generated by the 2nd Mar Div's intel section prior to the invasion. It is an interesting doc (I have tried to attach a low rez version, so hopefully it will show).

I think I am going to try and get the OOB completed first and then try and determine the best way to handle the bombardment.

Regards,
Merrick

Mike Cox
14 Oct 07, 12:02
I used an E-series (1943) division as the model, I think the Red Beach scenario that shipped with the game used F-series (1944).

Good luck with the project.

mb4329
15 Oct 07, 20:32
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the file. To be fair I hadn't even considered that the USMC OOB would be off. I'm interested to see the differences.

Merrick

Mike Cox
16 Oct 07, 00:58
Well Bill may well have information pointing to the the 2nd Marines using F-Series for Galvanic, but I didn't.

One problem with mine is that I was working alog straight TO&E lines, but in fact corps and regimental assets like engineers and HMG's were parcelled out. In game terms, if you don't assign them to lower formations they will lose leadership mods. My thought was to make the oob and then cut it up and rearrange it into the landing teams, etc.

My main source was teh US Marine Corps WW2 OOB by Gordon Rottman. Also found the S&T magazine and game Red Beach One to be helpful. Interesting discussion on the evolution on the Marine Company/Platoon/Squad.

FastPhil
16 Oct 07, 13:02
Well Bill may well have information pointing to the the 2nd Marines using F-Series for Galvanic, but I didn't.

One problem with mine is that I was working alog straight TO&E lines, but in fact corps and regimental assets like engineers and HMG's were parcelled out. In game terms, if you don't assign them to lower formations they will lose leadership mods. My thought was to make the oob and then cut it up and rearrange it into the landing teams, etc.

My main source was teh US Marine Corps WW2 OOB by Gordon Rottman. Also found the S&T magazine and game Red Beach One to be helpful. Interesting discussion on the evolution on the Marine Company/Platoon/Squad.

Here is an exerpt from the Official History-it is available on line and they include the different series OOB.


The Marine division that figured in
Admiral Nimitz’ plans for the Gilberts
was organized according to the E series
tables of organization adopted in April
1943. With an authorized strength of
19,965 officers and men, the division
was constructed in a triangular fashion
—three infantry regiments, each of
which had three infantry battalions.
This arrangement enabled the division
commanding general to hold in reserve
an entire regiment without impairing
the ability of his command to attack or
to remain on the defensive. A regimental
commander could exercise this
same option with his battalions, and
the battalion commander with his rifle
companies, as well as with a headquarters
company and a weapons company.
An infantry regiment was authorized a
basic strength of 3,242, a battalion 953,
and a rifle company 196.
Supporting the divisional infantry
components were an engineer regiment
of three battalions (engineer, pioneer,
and naval construction), an artillery
regiment with three battalions of 75-
mm pack howitzers and two of 105mm
howitzers, Special Troops, and Service
Troops. Special Troops, its total strength 2,315, consisted of a light tank
battalion which included the division
scout company, a special weapons battalion
equipped with antitank and antiaircraft
guns, and the division
headquarters battalion which contained
headquarters, signal, and military
police companies. Service, motor
transport, amphibian tractor, and medical
battalions, with a total of 2,200 officers
and men, made up Service Troops.
The division chaplains, doctors, dentists,
hospital corpsmen, and the Seabees
of its naval construction battalion
were members of the U. S. Navy.
The infantry units, too, had their
own support elements. A weapons
company armed with heavy machine
guns, 37mm antitank guns, and selfpropelled
75mm guns was under the
direct control of each regimental commander.
The battalion commander
had his own company of heavy machine
guns and 81mm mortars, and a company
commander could rely on the light
machine guns and 60mm mortars of
his weapons platoon.
The basic structure of both division
and regiment was altered when necessary.
Troops normally under corps
control, such as reconnaissance,
medium tank, or artillery units, might
be used to reinforce the division. For
amphibious operations, each regiment
was made a combat team by the
addition of troops from the artillery
and engineer regiments, the amphibian
tractor, medical, motor transport, service,
tank, and special weapons battalions.
These attachments increased the
strength of the regiment to as much as
5,393. Some of the additional
troops were reassigned to the infantry
battalions, so that the combat team
generally consisted of three landing
teams, each with its own engineer, artillery,
medical, and tank support.

mb4329
01 Sep 08, 08:52
OK, I have found some time to revisit this endeavor and have a couple of question (BTW, thanks for all the previous feedback it was helpful).

1) Is there an way to easily re-org an OOB? For example I have attached a company weapon plts too high up the OOB (to the company commander) and want to move them into a company weapons plt. I understand I need to create a plt, but I cannot figure out how to take existing weapon and crew entries and move them under the "new" plt. Do I need delete the old entries and recreate the weapons and crew under the new plt?

2) I have pulled together a passable Japanese OOB however I am unsure how to handle the large number of heavy wpns present from a C2 perspective. Should I just say OK these group of wpns looks like a battery (due to geographic proximity and type) and therefore I will assign an officer to that battery? Any recommendations/suggestions? Hopefully, the answer to question one will allow me to re-order the japanese OOB with having to reconstitute it.

3) I noticed that Eagles Strike has a campaign game component. Is it possible to create a short campaign game in PtF?

Thanks,
Merrick

Ozgur Budak
01 Sep 08, 10:02
I highly recommend designing small scenarios before looking into monster scenarios such as this one. There are lots to learn in SB designing and learning them in smaller scale will be much easier.

rahamy
01 Sep 08, 20:32
OK, I have found some time to revisit this endeavor and have a couple of question (BTW, thanks for all the previous feedback it was helpful).

1) Is there an way to easily re-org an OOB? For example I have attached a company weapon plts too high up the OOB (to the company commander) and want to move them into a company weapons plt. I understand I need to create a plt, but I cannot figure out how to take existing weapon and crew entries and move them under the "new" plt. Do I need delete the old entries and recreate the weapons and crew under the new plt?


Use the "Lower" & "Raise" data arrows on the menu bar in the OOB editor, then you can move the entire entry to where you want it.




2) I have pulled together a passable Japanese OOB however I am unsure how to handle the large number of heavy wpns present from a C2 perspective. Should I just say OK these group of wpns looks like a battery (due to geographic proximity and type) and therefore I will assign an officer to that battery? Any recommendations/suggestions? Hopefully, the answer to question one will allow me to re-order the japanese OOB with having to reconstitute it.


I guess that would depend on how historical you were trying to make the OOB...the best answer is dig and find what the actual structure was. :crosseye:



3) I noticed that Eagles Strike has a campaign game component. Is it possible to create a short campaign game in PtF?

Thanks,
Merrick

Not at this time, but that's not saying it couldn't be...let's see some results on the scenario design side and I'll see what I can do after that.

And as Oz says, starting small is the best answer to getting your feet wet I would say....

Mike Cox
02 Sep 08, 00:00
1) Is there an way to easily re-org an OOB? For example I have attached a company weapon plts too high up the OOB (to the company commander) and want to move them into a company weapons plt. I understand I need to create a plt, but I cannot figure out how to take existing weapon and crew entries and move them under the "new" plt. Do I need delete the old entries and recreate the weapons and crew under the new plt?
You can also cut and paste the platoons as needed (in addition to moving them with the up and down arrows).


2) Should I just say OK these group of wpns looks like a battery (due to geographic proximity and type) and therefore I will assign an officer to that battery?
I would probably do that. With the density rule ineffect, officer casualties are on the rise, and if you a planning a monster, you'll be short of officers quickly.

mb4329
02 Sep 08, 20:25
Thanks Ozgar, rahamy, and Mike.

My mistake was adding all the heavy weapons and not assigning them to sub-formations (ie some sort of battery structure) like I did for the other Japanese units. Based on what I have read here and tried in the OOB editor I am unable to change subordination inside the formation probably a result of how I initially assigned units. For instance I have a battalion and individual squads/weapons are assigned directly to the battalion. I can add the new C2 structure (ie companies and platoons), but I have been unsuccessful in moving the individual squads from being subordinate to the battalion to subordinate to the new platoons. Using the arrow buttons does move the unit but it just skips over the new C2 structure. Not a big problem just was hoping to avoid rekeying the data.

Agreed on the starting out small, but for me I have always had a fascination with the battle and find I rather enjoy the challenge of the task. As for the question of a campaign game I am nowhere near that point. I was just curious if I had overlooked a feature.

Thanks again.
Merrick

Ozgur Budak
03 Sep 08, 08:49
1) Is there an way to easily re-org an OOB? For example I have attached a company weapon plts too high up the OOB (to the company commander) and want to move them into a company weapons plt. I understand I need to create a plt, but I cannot figure out how to take existing weapon and crew entries and move them under the "new" plt. Do I need delete the old entries and recreate the weapons and crew under the new plt?



You can only cut and paste them. Also be aware that you cannot reorganize the oob after yu placed them into map in the scenario editor. You should first remove them from the map.