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LeeScott
20 Aug 07, 16:13
How come Cavalry Units equipped with cuirasses donít receive a small Melee Modifier (5-10%) against other Cavalry during Melee.

Gary McClellan
20 Aug 07, 16:47
I'd say the best answer to that is that there are a few levels of detail that simply aren't in the engine, that perhaps should be. A lot of it comes back to the old question of how much detail do you want, and that's one aspect of the old "realism vs playability" thing.

The engine does evolve, and I believe it will continue to do so. However, the other thing is, is that one of the 2-3 most glaring things that needs to be fixed? John Tiller's usual approach seems to be that he'll add 2-3 major features per release. So, the ACW games, which have many more games than the Naps, has evolved more, and the PzC games, more still. (Let's see... 9 ACW IIRC, vs 5 Nap, and I'm too lazy to count the billions of Panzer Titles)

KG_RangerBooBoo
20 Aug 07, 17:13
(Let's see... 9 ACW IIRC, vs 5 Nap, and I'm too lazy to count the billions of Panzer Titles)

Why don't you exaggerate a little Gary! I think that the Panzer Campaigns only number in the high hundreds of millions. :clown:

L`zard
20 Aug 07, 17:47
@LeeScott;

Could it have something to do with the small bonus for the armor factor being balanced out by the small debit for encumbrance?

While a cuirass might stop a slash, it would also inhibit the counterblow, eh? Certainly didn't (as far as I've read...) stop close range musketry, LOL!

Methinx that most wounds were probably arms/legs/horse that disabled troopers anyway in melee (IMOO)....

This is Hvy Cav. One would need a close look at the stats, eh? Note that the Br. Hvy Cav are not wearing said armor: the difference?

Note: I'm not playing the game, this is just a 'drive-by' posting, but used to play Nap minis and there Hvy Cav was just Hvy Cav. Can easily see 'the designer' using the same sort of thinking, eh?

Otherwise: McClellan prolly has the issue nailed.

LeeScott
20 Aug 07, 18:23
@LeeScott;

Note that the Br. Hvy Cav are not wearing said armor: the difference?



Just a Question flyby, Anyway I could say if it didnít render some benefit then why use it at all and after Waterloo the British did start using it, wonder why.

L`zard
20 Aug 07, 18:47
Just a Question flyby, Anyway I could say if it didnít render some benefit then why use it at all and after Waterloo the British did start using it, wonder why.

From Wikipedia:

"The three Household Cavalry regiments of the British Army (1st and 2nd Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards) had adopted cuirasses after the Napoleonic Wars as part of their full dress, but never had occasion to wear this armour in battle."

L`zard
20 Aug 07, 18:54
Cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuirassier

For what that's worth, lol!

Anyway, for myself, I'd imagine that 'tradition of the unit' has lots to due with it, eh?

YMMV.

Note that 'cuirassiers' started to go to lighter armor even in the English Cival War, where some wore only leather, IIRC.

Worth a little google time, if your really fond of the French version. GD cuirassiers were some 'serious dudes, used correctly......

AlAmos
20 Aug 07, 19:29
A bullet would hit the horse the same, no? :D

LeeScott
20 Aug 07, 19:33
Well I donít believe the Brits adapted the cuirass because it looked good, and as far as never using it, that donít matter neither. Eh.
Physical or a Moral boost some benefit was there.

LeeScott
20 Aug 07, 19:48
A bullet would hit the horse the same, no? :D

Question was related to Cavalry verse Cavalry. :paperbag:

L`zard
20 Aug 07, 20:40
Well I donít believe the Brits adapted the cuirass because it looked good, and as far as never using it, that donít matter neither. Eh.
Physical or a Moral boost some benefit was there.

OK, Lee.......

In the end, all of this is about the 'stats' in the game, eh? Correct me where wrong.......you asked about the stats, I came in with some 'observations', I'll bow to anyone that's actually 'playing' the game and has access to the finer aspects of who's doing who, and how, eh?

'twould appear that only the game designer can actually answer questions of this sort........good luck in obtaining your desires, eh?

In my estimation, nearly every 'elite' kind of unit would have some sort of 'benifit' , always happened with mini's, eh? I'll note that there is usually some sort of 'drawback' involved as well (in most cases...) if for no other reason than 'play balance'.......

Forgive me for being 'talkative' about a game I'm not playing, but the 1st post was rather 'open' in nature, LOL!

@AlAmos: Yes, one would assume. The function of Inf going into 'square' formation, not only does the unit 'shoot 'em up', but then stands off the cav with massed bayonettes. Sometimes the 'horses' were smarter than thier 'riders'. See 'square bashing'..........

eds
21 Aug 07, 11:20
Hi ,
I agree with Lee that wearing a cuirass would have had some benefit in melee. The French must have believed this too as they wore both breast and back plate, it would have been a lot of needless extra weight if their was no positive pay off. The Brits may not have used them but i believe they were the exception wrather than the rule, many other nations of the period had cuirrassiers which used at least a breast plate.
L'zard, i used to play minitures and i seem to remember that heavy cav wearing a cuirrass recieved a bonus, so i guess it all depends on which set of rules you're using.

Lord_Valentai
22 Aug 07, 20:28
But the Lifeguards DID wear breastplates at Waterloo!

FM WarB
23 Aug 07, 10:09
But the Lifeguards DID wear breastplates at Waterloo!
The Lifeguards did not have breastplates at Waterloo. All historical sources I am privy to agree on this (rare unanimty on any topic). Heavy cavalry were heavy cavalry because they had bigger and better horses than light cavalry and their training was more oriented to charging than the light cavalry, whose mission was scouting and screening.
Interestingly, the french chasseurs a cheval (and other light cavalry, probably) wore their greatcoats in blanket rolls, draped across their chests to provide some protection against sword thrusts. The added protection did not make them heavy cavalry, as they were not mounted on the chargers the heavy cavalry had.

L`zard
27 Aug 07, 20:06
But the Lifeguards DID wear breastplates at Waterloo!

Can you give a 'cite' for this?

I'll accept that they may have had 'ceremonial' plate to wear, but nothing I've ever read indicated that any form of plate was worn in battle (by brit cav) at this date, eh?

Lord_Valentai
28 Aug 07, 04:29
:hush: :paperbag:

Let us never mention my comment again. I'm better than that, really...it won't happen again! :p

Sgt_Rock
28 Aug 07, 18:02
Lee and guys - all heavy cavalry does recieve a bonus. Here is the blurb from the manual concerning heavy cavalry:

When Heavy Cavalry or Cavalry equipped with Lances melee attacks, its strength is increased by 25%.

Yes, when they defend they do not get the bonus. Mainly has to do with the size of horse perhaps but the cuirass is factored in as well.

Lord_Valentai
29 Aug 07, 19:11
I remember in the Russian Campaign in 1812 that one unit of Russians did not have back plates and suffered as a result against the French and Polish Cuisrassiers.

L`zard
29 Aug 07, 20:22
I remember in the Russian Campaign in 1812 that one unit of Russians did not have back plates and suffered as a result against the French and Polish Cuisrassiers.

?stats for the units involved? Which unit?

Sgt Rock has a point....

Russians atked from flank/rear?

FM WarB
29 Aug 07, 20:51
I remember in the Russian Campaign in 1812 that one unit of Russians did not have back plates and suffered as a result against the French and Polish Cuisrassiers.

The trick to being a cuirassier without a backplate is to NOT show your back to the enemy....:D

Gary McClellan
29 Aug 07, 20:54
The trick to being a cuirassier without a backplate is to NOT show your back to the enemy....:D

Unless of course you're Prussian...

In which case you might want to wear it backwards! :clown:

FM WarB
30 Aug 07, 00:27
Even I like to protect myself against the ole stab in the back....lol

Gary McClellan
30 Aug 07, 00:36
Even I like to protect myself against the ole stab in the back....lol


A Serbia S A Bud-Tri

Lord_Valentai
30 Aug 07, 18:21
Now, I've not verified this source, but it seems he knows a lot about the subject:


This is interesting that several French participants of the battle at Borodino wrote about the Russian cuirassiers wearing not the full armor but only the front plates. They even describe how during pursuits they were able to inflict wounds to cuirassiersí backs. The known artist, Louis Lejeune made one of the first pictures representing Borodino ďLa bataille de la Moskova le 7 Septembre 1812Ē and in its corner is seen Russian cuirassier wearing the front plate only and attacking the square of 84e Ligne.