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FM WarB
08 Aug 07, 00:58
Night game turn was changed to ONE turn, for 16-17 June mid game. Weather change in pdt file now due to occur on a turn that No Longer exists. It is now 1500, 16 June.
vonEge as french; I am Allies.
Will night game turn change mid game cause an error, when program searches for weather change on a turn that does not exist?

rahamy
08 Aug 07, 09:52
The night turn shouldn't be an issue, but the change in the weather will be. It will read one change off...so if its supposed to be reaining, but the next entry is clear, it will be clear.

Always best to not mess with the PDT file mid-game. I learned this the hard way with the first Waterloo update. :upset:

FM WarB
08 Aug 07, 11:36
Thanks Rich. As no precipitation changes are called for overnight, we should be ok. Reinforcements were already set for none to come in during night turns, as I was looking at no night move gentlemen's rule at the time.
We are trying a one turn (360 minutes) night turn to speed up game, and to probably induce later starts in the morning for rest purposes.
Currently 3:00 PM, 16 June; I as allies have not lost yet.

FM WarB
22 Aug 07, 08:22
Playtest update:
The 10:30 weather change did screw up the one turn 360 minute night turn idea. The game advanced to 10:30 and would not get back on proper time track. We clicked through some turns and it was all screwed up.
I routinely save my move to a seperate folder before clicking the advance turn button. We changed the PDT file back to one hour night turns and resent the 20:45 move. We sped through the six night turns (no night movement gentlemens' rule) and start at dawn on the 17th with well rested forces.

LeeScott
22 Aug 07, 13:28
Fm WarB makes a good point about night movement. There should be some kind restriction imposed other than just visibly. While I admit I donít play the Campaign part of the game that much which involves multiple night turns, the system as now lets your army march forever without having to stop. So his gentlemenís' rule is understandable.
The penalty I would like to see is fatigue be assigned to Units that due move on night turns. So each night turn if you move your unit at all other than a face change then the penalty could be assigned as value number just as it is now when a Unit Is fire on, Melee with, or receives fire loss. Going into battle the next day with possible Fatigue levels of 200-300 may encourage some people not to move there units during the night. :lier:
Also I would also restrict Calvary from being allowed to charge on night turns.

Gary McClellan
22 Aug 07, 14:11
As a general rule, I tend to agree, and there have been lots of calls across the engine for Night Movement Fatigue.

One of the problems we have is that the engine has been pushed past the original design. Originally, the battles in the engine were single day affairs (even more so in the Battleground games that preceded it). In Eckmuhl, all the scenarios but one were "single day" fights. Of course, the exception was the big 500+ turn monster. What I'm getting at is that all the ins and outs of Night Figthing weren't really in view. However, as time has gone on, we've seen more multiday battles in the game (Aspern Essling and Wagram, and the "big" scenarios in Waterloo and Jena especially).

I will say, that I'd be leery of restricting Cav at night, if only because doing that would make the historical battle of Alt-Elgolfsheim impossible to simulate in the engine.

LeeScott
22 Aug 07, 15:30
This is only a minor issue, I guess Cavalry charge on night turns is just maybe a personnel preface. Since Artillery/Infantry can not shoot beyond 1 hex how can my Cavalry Charge blindly into the night at full movement valve at something it can not see. Iím not saying they should not be able to melee, but if night turn visibility was turned up to something like (2) then Calvary should be able to charge at what it sees just as Art/Inf can only shoot at what it sees. Anyway as we both know its not going to get changed. :laugh::laugh:

AlAmos
22 Aug 07, 20:36
There is a fix within the game engine as is....

Set the day/dusk so that it is always daytime, then....

Set the weather parameter anyway you want to at the various times, and when it is night-time label it that way.

You can then set the 'nights' to have any kind of penalties you like. The only drawback would be that 'night' turns would be as long as 'day' turns.

Basically, the weather feature makes the dawn/dusk/day/night turn obsolete.

al

Gary McClellan
22 Aug 07, 20:58
Al that only works so long as you don't want the other night effects to take place (Auto Disorder on line move, Morale penalties, higher fatigue recovery)

FM WarB
22 Aug 07, 21:13
I have been one who has been plugging for night march fatigue, as in Panzer campaigns. I can see where there would be programming roadblocks that would make such (and other changes in PzC) near impossible.
If you are playing a multi day scenario, one side benefit of the no night move gentlemens' rule is that it enables you to speed zip through six one hour turns (in June). Night fatigue recovery is better than during the day, so the armies are relatively fresh at dawn.
BTW this multi day Belgium campaign scenario I speak about is now posted over at H2H on the Blitzkrieg Wargamers' site. It features an expanded and improved Units file, and the oob ideas used in my Ligny/QB scenario posted here.

Gary McClellan
22 Aug 07, 21:18
Generally, my approach to night turns is that I try not to redefine the front line. I'll gladly gather my scattered brigades, but more to the point, I will make major redeployments if need be.

For instance, If I decide that on the next day, I want to hammer the enemy right flank, I'll gladly send a reserve Corps on a march behind my own lines to be in position for a dawn attack. That was absolutely SOP in those days.

AlAmos
22 Aug 07, 21:54
Gary,

Correct however, when you consider turn length for day and night turns the higher recovery rate could be offset since you have more night turns. As for Morale penatly ... its been too long since I've played, so I forget what that is, and if the NAP engine has the optional LMD rule (again I forget, sorry) then the auto disorder can be overcome, too.

al

Gary McClellan
22 Aug 07, 22:16
The morale penalty is -2 for morale checks at night. Of course, the problem with that is that it puts the defender to a disadvantage... but night fighting gets pretty messy and insane in a hurry.

FM WarB
23 Aug 07, 11:25
Bottom line: In an 18 hour day infantry (at 10 mps) can move 72 kilometers and cavalry (at 14 mps) can move 101.8 kilometers during the day. Allowing units to move at such speed all day, and THEN move at night with no fatigue is what promotes Blitzkrieg tactics in these Napoleonic games.
The no night move gentlemens' rule is an attempt to reign in such unrealistic Strategic movement capability. Give me some sort of march fatigue or Night movement fatigue rule and it would not be necessary.

rahamy
23 Aug 07, 19:54
I always play with no night movement outside of localized reorganization...much more realistic I think, but I prefer to go through the turns and allow fatigue recovery to take place, supply wagons to continue to move, etc.

'Ol Fezziwig
28 Aug 07, 12:26
I'm not sure if it's possible, but would tying movement fatigue-night or daylight-to some sort of per diem benchmark (e.g., cumulative MPs spent, weighing nighttime MPs more heavily) work better than merely penalising night movements? As has been mentioned, night movements, especially redeploying, supply and screening units, was fairly commonplace for certain endeavours.

FM WarB
28 Aug 07, 13:52
[QUOTE='Ol Fezziwig;901476]I'm not sure if it's possible, but would tying movement fatigue-night or daylight-to some sort of per diem benchmark (e.g., cumulative MPs spent, weighing nighttime MPs more heavily) work better than merely penalising night movements? QUOTE]

Cumulative and consective. Rest stops rewarded. Ideally.

'Ol Fezziwig
28 Aug 07, 20:28
[QUOTE='Ol Fezziwig;901476]I'm not sure if it's possible, but would tying movement fatigue-night or daylight-to some sort of per diem benchmark (e.g., cumulative MPs spent, weighing nighttime MPs more heavily) work better than merely penalising night movements? QUOTE]

Cumulative and consective. Rest stops rewarded. Ideally.


I realise that, of course, though I do tend to run my guys into the ground at times. Rereading my other post *now*, it does seem rather stupid. I mean, I have played these games going back to the Talonsoft days...or daze, apparently...:rolleyes: