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jztemple
21 Jun 07, 18:07
To quote

Alternate Fire Density when this rule is selected, an alternate density calculation is done in resolving fire effects so that it is not as hard to kill units with only a few men.

Is it me or does this rule seem to cause your leaders to die very fast?

rahamy
22 Jun 07, 08:08
Yes, it does, so watch how you use them...keep them off the front lines if possible.

jztemple
22 Jun 07, 10:12
In Afghanistan wherever my leader is seems to be the front line!

sergeant610
22 Jun 07, 11:09
Gentlemen:

Sometimes it just sucks to be in charge. You may have noticed that most of the platoons or battle groups in SAW now have two leaders. DRA troops probably only have one to show how fragile they are. Since leaders are critical to the game, you need to try and protect them as best you can. This is usually easier as the defender than as the attacker, but there is often a way.

Jeff

FastPhil
22 Jun 07, 22:07
Just remember all the old war movies and some of the new ones. Smart officers don't wear bars and don't like being called 'sir' if they want to avoid being a target.
It is probably a good rule to use on new games but I would recommend using it gingerly on the old games until you see how it plays. The scenarios balance might be affected drastically. I remember an Eagle Strike game I think against Lucas Kling. I had a single man unit that he tried to eliminate for several turns by fire and assault and the 'Duke' withstood it all. That won't happen as much with this rule. :cry:

rahamy
23 Jun 07, 11:59
Just to be clear, the Alt Fire Density rule will only adversely affect leaders when they are alone in the hex. That is, the total number of men in a hex is used for the rule so if the leader is in with other units, they don't get singled out, only if they are by themselves.

jztemple
16 Jul 08, 10:24
I'm resurrecting this old thread since I'm a bit confused. Currently the rule on Fire Density from the Winter War Users Manual reads as follows:


Density Effect
Except when Sniper weapons are used, a Density Effect applies to the fire value. For a given target unit, the Density Effect is calculated as:
For Leader target units, the fire value is multiplied by 0.10.
For Team target units, the fire value is multiplied by S / 10 where S is the strength of the unit.
For Vehicles, there is no Density Effect.
When the Alternate Fire Density optional rule is used, then the density factor is never taken to be less then 0.5. For example, for a Team consisting of a single man, the fire value is multiplied by 0.5 rather than 0.1 as it would be normally.

Until I re-read this old thread I didn't use the the Alt Fire Density optional rule because the way it reads, it would seem to go by total men in each unit, *not* total men in the hex. This would mean, per the manual and if the optional rule is in effect, that attacks on Leaders would get a 0.5 modifier rather than the original 0.1 adjustment.

But to quote Rich:

Just to be clear, the Alt Fire Density rule will only adversely affect leaders when they are alone in the hex. That is, the total number of men in a hex is used for the rule so if the leader is in with other units, they don't get singled out, only if they are by themselves.

Could we get some further clarification on the rule, the optional rule and Rich's clarification? Does the Alt Fire Density optional rule use the total man count in the hex in it's "S / 10" calculation?

TheBigRedOne
16 Jul 08, 12:09
Yeah, it was/is a slightly confusing option. The 'old timers' used to keep our leaders say in the hex behind the platoon and retreat our men backwards towards him, as was outlined by Echo Four's great SB tutorials. If you use the AFD rule, he becomes an easier kill if he is seen by the enemy and is alone in that hex.

Using this rule with the older games might not be a good option, but with the games from SAW forward, where the designers can take this into account, it can be utilized well, I believe. The rule was meant as a way of preventing that 'heroic last stand' of a single soldier in a hex that is just seemingly impossible to kill or assault, not necessarily make the leaders more vulnerable, although in war, they are the first ones the enemy will go after, so their vulernability is not a historical inaccuracy.

Ozgur Budak
16 Jul 08, 15:05
The rule was implemented to simulate casualties in guerilla warfare where squads are smaller and dispersed. I dont recommend using it for conventional warfare scenarios.

jztemple
16 Jul 08, 22:46
Because I can't resist a challenge (or some silliness with the game editor) I ran a series of test with leaders and the Alternate Fire Density rules. Rather than rewrite it all here, I'll provide a link:

Alternate Fire Density Test for Leaders (https://sites.google.com/site/jzs-place/squad-battles-field-test/alt-fire-density-test)

I'm still thinking about what the results all mean, but basically I think I'll keep the Alternate Fire Density optional rule disabled.

Ozgur Budak
17 Jul 08, 06:55
A small note on tactical usage. In SAW, Soviet platoon leaders have radio teams and Mujahideen leaders got bodyguards. Those teams are generally 2-3 men strenght. It is wise to deploy them together right behind the troops. This way the leaders wont be alone in the hex behind their troops.

TheBigRedOne
17 Jul 08, 18:07
Because I can't resist a challenge (or some silliness with the game editor) I ran a series of test with leaders and the Alternate Fire Density rules. Rather than rewrite it all here, I'll provide a link:

Alternate Fire Density Test for Leaders (https://sites.google.com/site/jzs-place/squad-battles-field-test/alt-fire-density-test)

I'm still thinking about what the results all mean, but basically I think I'll keep the Alternate Fire Density optional rule disabled.

Another interesting test might simply be instead of having a single leader, only have a single Squad Dude in a hex and see if the results are similar to that of a leader by himself. Might give an idea of whether or not if AFD makes the leader more vulnerable, or if it's simply the single person alone in a hex.

Great names, by the way. Squad dude, Shooter Team and the leader's name as Shooties.

jztemple
18 Jul 08, 00:29
Another interesting test might simply be instead of having a single leader, only have a single Squad Dude in a hex and see if the results are similar to that of a leader by himself. Might give an idea of whether or not if AFD makes the leader more vulnerable, or if it's simply the single person alone in a hex.

Great names, by the way. Squad dude, Shooter Team and the leader's name as Shooties.

I ran this test as you suggested. The single soldier is way, way more vulnerable with the AFD option on. I did only five passes on each variation, but the numbers kind of line up with the first test of a single leader in a hex. With AFD enabled, single guys in a hex, whether a soldier or leader, are much more vulnerable. If a leader is in a hex with a single soldier or a full squad then he is more vulnerable with AFD enabled than not enabled, but not anywhere as dangerous than as if he was alone in the hex.

TheBigRedOne
18 Jul 08, 10:15
I ran this test as you suggested. The single soldier is way, way more vulnerable with the AFD option on. I did only five passes on each variation, but the numbers kind of line up with the first test of a single leader in a hex. With AFD enabled, single guys in a hex, whether a soldier or leader, are much more vulnerable. If a leader is in a hex with a single soldier or a full squad then he is more vulnerable with AFD enabled than not enabled, but not anywhere as dangerous than as if he was alone in the hex.

This makes sense. It does show that it's not just a single leader that's more vulnerable in a hex by himself, which is how it should be.

I think Oz's notion that AFD is more designed for guerrilla type conflicts, that I wouldn't use it on older titles, especially pre-SAW. I haven't tried it much, myself, but maybe I'll give it a whirl playing the same game vs the AI with and without it on to see how it affects the over-all game play.

jztemple
12 Dec 08, 10:57
Resurrecting an old thread for a question...

When this optional rule is enabled, does the AI try to avoid putting it's leaders into hexes by themselves? Should I disable this option if playing versus the AI?

TheBigRedOne
12 Dec 08, 13:02
Mike would probably be the best person to answer this, but my initial thought would be that the AI isn't sophisticated enough to do this type of strategy.

In general, I don't play with this rule on, PBEM or solo.

rahamy
12 Dec 08, 14:50
No specific coding was put in place for the AI for this that I am aware of, so running a few tests would be in order to see what it does.

Mike Cox
16 Dec 08, 15:34
AI is hit or miss on stacking leaders. He will move a leader to a pinned unit (or vice versa). However, he can be sloppy in leaving a leader alone in close proximity to the enemy. (Then again, I have seem humans make that same mistake, much to their chagrin.)