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FastPhil
24 Mar 07, 22:10
I am one the receiving end of an Allied Armor Blitz on Utah beach. My opponent raised the point that Armor seems to be the GOD of SB and relatively invulnerable except against another AFV. I have also other opponents who have said the bazooka is much too powerful especially outside of one hex range. My feeling is that many ATG(especially relatively small caliber guns) are listed as towed as as such can only move by a vehicle.
I don't feel that is historical-I've seen too many pictures of then being manhandled especially down streets/roads. They are often setup in areas with extremely limited visibility so that they do nothing for the majority of the game. What do you guys think?

Mini-Me
24 Mar 07, 22:33
I am one the receiving end of an Allied Armor Blitz on Utah beach. My opponent raised the point that Armor seems to be the GOD of SB and relatively invulnerable except against another AFV. I have also other opponents who have said the bazooka is much too powerful especially outside of one hex range. My feeling is that many ATG(especially relatively small caliber guns) are listed as towed as as such can only move by a vehicle.
I don't feel that is historical-I've seen too many pictures of then being manhandled especially down streets/roads. They are often setup in areas with extremely limited visibility so that they do nothing for the majority of the game. What do you guys think?


I know that in ASL, AT guns up to a certain size can be manhandled and fired pretty soon after.

Blackcloud6
24 Mar 07, 23:06
I know that in ASL, AT guns up to a certain size can be manhandled and fired pretty soon after.


One of many reasons why ASL is a much better game than SB.

FastPhil
24 Mar 07, 23:28
One of many reasons why ASL is a much better game than SB.

I think that might be a case of apples vs oranges. Is it a more detailed game-yes.:devious: 695,000,000,000 pages of rules make it more detailed and turns off many gamers including hard-core board gamers.:nuts: I have about $1000 dollars worth of ASL sitting in buckets collecting mold.:cry: I play tested many of the HASL modules for AH/MMG but finally got burned out. Many weekends of 18 hours straight of MP Red Barricades and KGP I and KGP II and played ASL it PBEM and using VASL. If anything SB reminds me of the old SL. Would I like to see some changes in SB. you bet. But it it much easier playing SB and so much less of a pain. Fewer rules arguments and much less time trying to get the 'perfect' shot. :smoke:

Now is every tank a "Tiger" and if so what can be done about it. ?:)

Blackcloud6
24 Mar 07, 23:42
Heh heh didn't take too long to hook one on that troll.

Mini-Me
25 Mar 07, 00:05
695,000,000,000 pages of rules

This is what's known as maximum fun! :clown:

Truthfully, the rules encyclopedia never bothered me.

I wish I still had my stuff. :cry:

As for SB, armor is often the deciding factor. Use it properly and you can slaughter your opponent. Get careless and lose one too many (sometimes one IS too many), and you'll be the one getting slaughtered. VP-wise anyhow.

rahamy
25 Mar 07, 15:45
I'm with Phil on this one...while I enjoyed SL & ASL for a while the tremendous amount of rules turned me away from it. I prefer the SB games which handle the calculations, etc. for me.

Still room for improvement of course...and some will be coming soon...but its a lot more fun to play SB IMHO.

I've been able to take out tanks in a number of ways, but remember facing...front armor and sides are less vulnerable than rear armor. Also, things like bazookas, Paz. Sh., satchel charges, etc. might not knock out a tank, but they can reduce its effectiveness or possibly immobilize it...so there's more than one way to approach them. Would need to see a game file to comment specifically though.

Blackcloud6
25 Mar 07, 16:02
I'm with Phil on this one...while I enjoyed SL & ASL for a while the tremendous amount of rules turned me away from it. I prefer the SB games which handle the calculations, etc. for me.


This was the reason I first went away from ASL in th mid-90s when Steel Panthers came out.

But over the years I found SP and then EF/WF and then SB to be kind of boring. All battles were based on point based VCs from OBJ Capture and casualties. The scenarios became stale. There was something else missing: immersion. ASL forces you to immerse intothe game system as well as the tactics. The comuters games do all the grunt work for you and something ends up lost. In the end, ASL is much more fun. The reason I got out really was not all the rules and charts and stuff. I just didn't have the opportunity to play against otheres enough to get inot the systm. Now I play constnatly thanks to VASL and a Thursday night game group.

FastPhil
25 Mar 07, 19:57
What I miss from ASl is setting up my side-planning a strategy or an ambush and then seeing what happens. That woulds make scenarios infinitely more replayable. You would not need to pick units- just have freedom to deploy the ones you do have.:yummy: There are quite a few I'd like to be able to do that in-especially AOTR as Russian in Stalingrad.

Blackcloud6
25 Mar 07, 21:04
What I miss from ASl is setting up my side-planning a strategy or an ambush and then seeing what happens.

Yes, this is a big reason I couldn't get into SB too much. Same in EF/WF.

In ASL the set up is crucial.

Mike Cox
25 Mar 07, 21:14
But back to the original topic -

One change made recently was to make it very risky for AFV's to assault infantry in covered terrain. But yes, an AFV against infantry w/o support in the open is never pretty. Their main danger is that when they do go down they can be costly and throw the victory to the other side.

One nuance that is not always appreciated is when AT weapons are fresh they can still damage AFV's. If you burn off several long range shots with your RPG/bazooka/etc rather than investing time in working around for a flank/rear shot, by the time you do get that shot, the weapon effectiveness is downgraded to a point it is not worth much. (My view of this is that your At team has burned most/all of it's ammo.)

Now on the other hand I played an ES scenario a while back and my poor Shermans were being lit up like mad by a couple of well placed AT guns across a river.

Final point: I would like to see the heavy support weapons evolve a bit. Some sort of 'Portage Point' needs to be intoduced. A 60mm mortar is far from a 120mm mortar as far as a team moving it. You could then see Pack Howitzers, 37mm AT, some heavy AA being moved around, as well as slowing down some existing weapons.

Oh, and so Fred, have you played an SB game lately? Come join the ladder. I assume you are on the ASL ladder (based on seeing you over at CSW) and Steel Panthers here. You need a bit of variety in your life.