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Cundiff
10 Feb 07, 17:20
Howdy Gents,

A gentleman recently asked me why no one had developed counters for PB/PL for the Korean War? I didn't have a good answer for him. Perhaps in the past someone has made some efforts in that direction, I don't know. His reasoning was that the new boards at Ward McBurney's site fit very well into Korean terrain, lots of hill tops and streams without fords, etc. ... There hadn't been a great technological change from WWII. Korea was largely an infantry battle, with some support here and there from armor, especially the UN forces. Seemed to me he had a good idea.

In fact his idea was so good it by extension begged the next best question which was to ask about the early Indo/Pakistani War (though perhaps that would be a better topic for AIW than PL/PB) and the Arab-Israeli war of 47-48.

I think these are good areas to explore. Do any of you have thoughts and
possible counter ideas? Scenario ideas? Rules Variants? Lots of fodder here for good articles, and of course I, Old Soldiers Magazine, is always in the hunt for those.

Thanks Much,
Tom Cundiff
Old Soldiers Magazine
Website: http://mysite.verizon.net/rjlein/osm
Forum: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=179

Cundiff
10 Feb 07, 17:28
Some considerations for Korea are these:

Tthe M46 and M47 tanks were on the scene in 53, the Pershing was
the mainstay of the US Army. The recoilless rocket was in widespread
use by both the US and UK/Commonwealth forces. A number of US self
propelled artillery pieces were now in service. France was operating
several types of new armored cars and the AMX 13 series of tanks and
its variants had come on the scene. England had developed the Humber
Pig and the Saracen apc's. And, of course, there would be a need for
North Korean, South Korean, and Red Chinese counters and their soviet
made equipment. There was widespread use of US, Soviet, and Japanese
WWII surplus and cast off small arms by both North Korea and Red
China in the early stages of the Korean War - all had seen hard
service in WWII and were wore out. Later units would be equipped by
new Soviet weaponry. So, early infantry from these nations would
need to reflect the greater odds of equipment and supply failures due
to the nature of the equipment available to them early. Later supply
failure would need to be taken into account because US air
interdiction controlled all supply routes. But, at least the rifles
and machineguns the communist forces were using were new, having
replaced the old wore out WWII surplus stuff that plagued them early
on.

There are several things to think about when it comes to factoring
Korean War era units as opposed to WWII, even though the equipment
was nominally the same.

Anyway, that's a beginning to the things I know to need consideration
in a Korean War module.

Take Care,
Tom

Blackcloud6
11 Feb 07, 00:07
I don't think the M47 was used in combat in Korea. The M26 and M46 were both used.

Cundiff
11 Feb 07, 00:51
You're quite right, the M47 didn't see combat in Korea. It did however, enter service in 53, equipping units in Europe first. It could have been sent to Korea, and that could is an important point to DYO counters and scenarios.

Aries
11 Feb 07, 03:50
I'm certainly "interested" in all this.

Blackcloud6
11 Feb 07, 07:24
You're quite right, the M47 didn't see combat in Korea. It did however, enter service in 53, equipping units in Europe first. It could have been sent to Korea, and that could is an important point to DYO counters and scenarios.

Roger that!

In 1985 they were still there and in service with the ROK Army. On EXERCISE CROSS BUCK I was ordered to take my infantry company and meet a ROK Tank Compnay and mount up for the attack. I was suprised when I saw M47s pulling up to us. They were well kept too. Off we went....

Cundiff
15 Feb 07, 12:46
I'm sure by now you all know I'm seeking input into creating a Korean War module for either AIW or PL. Many of Ward McBurney's new maps would work perfectly to model the terrain of Korea. So, all we need do is figure out which rules set would work better, PL or AIW for the war (and I tend to think AIW would - it did a far better job with artillery which was central to Korea).

Pursuant to this effort, one of our number sent me some counters he made in his youth for Korea and/or post WWII US/Soviet conflict. I'm presenting his unit calculations for your comment, in the hope that it will stir you all to thinking. Maybe you'll design some scenarios in addition to counters. That would be a nice thing to put in Old Soldiers

Anyway, these are what he sent me. Comment?

13-A-10-13-4 Centurion I (UK)
14-A-10-10-5 M4A3E8 Sherman
17-A-12-12-5 M46
18-A-12-12-5 M47
13-(H)-48-1-0 122mm How (Soviet)
21-(H)-36-2-8 140mm MRL (Katyusha Truck)
4-M-12-3-1 82mm Mort. (Soviet)
14-A-8-2-3 85mm ATG (Soviet)
6-I-6-8-1 Inf (Soviet)
3-I(C)-4-4-9 BTR-152 (Soviet)
11-M-25-1-0 160mm Mort (Soviet)
15-(H)-48-1-0 152mm How (Soviet)
15-H-10-16-5 JSU 152
16-A-10-2-3 100mm ATG (Soviet)
16-A-10-15-6 SU 100
5-I-4-10-1 Engineers (Soviet)
7-A-8-7-6 T-34/85 (Soviet)
14-A-10-4-7 M-18 US
10-(H)-32-7-5 M-7 US
20-(H)-40-2-0 8in How US
14-A-10-6-6 M-10 US
10-(H)-32-2-0 105mm How US
15-(H)-36-2-0 155mm How US
11-A-8-7-6 M-24 US

Thanks Much,
Tom
Old Soldiers Magazine
Website: http://mysite.verizon.net/rjlein/osm
Forum: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=179