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Scully
08 Feb 04, 00:40
Hey DP,
Does Operation Sandcastle use the new database or is it linked to the original ProSim database? I started it tonight and it appears to be the old one.

This one looks like a bear and I love the op order you put together. Really well done.

Take care,
Brian

Deltapooh
08 Feb 04, 05:39
Hey DP,
Does Operation Sandcastle use the new database or is it linked to the original ProSim database? I started it tonight and it appears to be the old one.

This one looks like a bear and I love the op order you put together. Really well done.

Take care,
Brian

It uses the ProSim database, which, as Kbluck pointed out, makes this scenario nearly unwinnable, particularly after ProSim reduced the visibility of infantry, which I support. I am working on an update right now that will trade out the AT-5s for RGP-7Vs and a few AT-7 "Saxhorn". I thought about leaving the OOB as is since Kbluck's database turn DPICM into an infantryman's worst nightmare. However, I don't believe the Iraqis issued AT-5s with dismounts. I could get medieval and assign them AT-14 Kornets. I read the Iraqis had a few of those. :devil:

Scully
08 Feb 04, 14:33
It uses the ProSim database, which, as Kbluck pointed out, makes this scenario nearly unwinnable, particularly after ProSim reduced the visibility of infantry, which I support. I am working on an update right now that will trade out the AT-5s for RGP-7Vs and a few AT-7 "Saxhorn". I thought about leaving the OOB as is since Kbluck's database turn DPICM into an infantryman's worst nightmare. However, I don't believe the Iraqis issued AT-5s with dismounts. I could get medieval and assign them AT-14 Kornets. I read the Iraqis had a few of those. :devil:

Hey DP,

I'm looking forward to the update. The "reduced visibility" infantry were invisible to me. :) I was pushing my infantry up and was probably less than a thousand meters to the bad guys and still couldn't see them. So I decided to push forward with my assault behind some smoke...didn't work. What's worse, I never identified the infantry. Don't get too medievil on me...I'm having a hard enough time as it is.

Brian

kbluck
08 Feb 04, 15:26
I thought about leaving the OOB as is since Kbluck's database turn DPICM into an infantryman's worst nightmare.

I'm not sure what you mean. 155mm effects on infantry are unchanged from database1: 17% HE, 67% DPICM. It is true that I have significantly increased the relative effectiveness of smaller calibers, such as 120mm mortar, but those don't fire an ICM round (yet).

Also, even though DPICM fire is indeed quite effective, there is the small matter of getting an eyeball on the infantry to shoot it at them in the first place, which as you know can be difficult to do before it is already too late if you're not very careful about it.

If anything, I would *reduce* the effectiveness of ICM in several situations, most notably urban, dense woods, inundated areas (rice paddies, etc.) and infantry dug in with overhead cover. Its real-world effectiveness is significantly degraded in those situations, since it tends to either hang up, detonate prematurely, go dud, or have its primary fragmentation blocked. It really isn't the one-size-fits-all wonder weapon the game makes it out to be.

Also, there are political considerations. ICM munitions tend to produce a lot of duds on the ground, which have an unfortunate tendency to blow up civilians. In "collateral damage"-sensitive situations, it would not be unreasonable to simply not give the player any, simulating an ROE to that effect.

--- Kevin

Deltapooh
08 Feb 04, 19:55
I've enclosed before and after screenshots of a battery of M119 102mm towed conducting a fire mission on enemy dismounts. I used the APICM, M444 round with impact set to converged. As the After shot show, I didn't just wipe out all the enemy dismounts, but I suppressed my OH-58D almost a kilometer away.

Not that I'm complaining of course. I'd love to have this kind of effect on dismounts in Iraq Attack 1. :D

Pat Proctor
08 Feb 04, 23:31
I've enclosed before and after screenshots of a battery of M119 102mm towed conducting a fire mission on enemy dismounts. I used the APICM, M444 round with impact set to converged. As the After shot show, I didn't just wipe out all the enemy dismounts, but I suppressed my OH-58D almost a kilometer away.

The M119 and APICM round are an "aftermarket" addition to the DB. I would surmise from this screenshot that it is a result of using meters rather than tens of meters for for the blast radius.

Of course, artillery IS the biggest killer on the battlefield ;)

kbluck
09 Feb 04, 17:56
I've enclosed before and after screenshots of a battery of M119 102mm towed conducting a fire mission on enemy dismounts. I used the APICM, M444 round with impact set to converged. As the After shot show, I didn't just wipe out all the enemy dismounts, but I suppressed my OH-58D almost a kilometer away.

I checked the dpattack.veh database. I see the radius is set to 50, which equals 500 meters. Clearly a data error. A common typo, unfortunately, given the propensity for n/10 values in the DB.

I corrected it at some point, but I don't know when; at any rate, it is correct now in the "new" kbDataModern. However, I'm not extremely happy with APICM overall, since it really deserves a different "type" than DPICM. It should have little effect on armor of any type, but retain full effect on soft targets. My suggestion for scenarios where you can dispense with true DPICM is to "redefine" the DPICM effects appropriately for APICM. Keep in mind that practically nobody other than US or some NATO nations possessed and used any sort of ICM on any large scale. Even Soviet/Russia circa 1990 it was rather scarce. You can safely eliminate it from the Iraqi inventory.

--- Kevin

kbluck
09 Feb 04, 17:59
I could get medieval and assign them AT-14 Kornets. I read the Iraqis had a few of those.

Don't forget the AT-4 Spigot. Widely proliferated, it has a better range than the AT-7 and it is reasonably plausible for a dismount team to be lugging it. There is also the various flavors of AT-3 Sagger, which is even more widely proliferated to third world nations and very common in the Iraqi inventory. Another third world antitank favorite, common in infantry units, is the SPG-9 recoilless gun.

--- Kevin

Deltapooh
09 Feb 04, 19:28
Don't forget the AT-4 Spigot. Widely proliferated, it has a better range than the AT-7 and it is reasonably plausible for a dismount team to be lugging it. There is also the various flavors of AT-3 Sagger, which is even more widely proliferated to third world nations and very common in the Iraqi inventory. Another third world antitank favorite, common in infantry units, is the SPG-9 recoilless gun.

--- Kevin

Thanks for the advice. I'll them into the mix.