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Deltapooh
07 Dec 03, 07:18
The Tactical Decision-Making Scenario series is a new economical project I'm going to try, as I work on other mods for the community. TDM scenarios appear no different from other ATF scenarios. However, I've added conditions, which if obeyed, seeks to challenge players learn on the job, so to speak.

The goal is not necessarily to win. Instead, you will have a limited amount of time to develop plans. You are then encouraged to observe how that plan unfolds, making adjustments when necessary. It is also important to minimize the number of times you stop the clock. This can give you fits, but it also improves your action, and reaction time.

You can post solutions if you like. I do encourage you though to take notes to help you learn from your mistakes.

The scenario itself is not a walk in the part. I've found an error in my technique for testing Battle Plans. The new method is better, and will probably give you hell. You have limited resources. The enemy is more coordinated since I chose to replicate a enemy that will fight you, and not how realistic opponents fought previous battle. This, along with the TDMS instructions should keep you busy for a while.

There are three new vehicle pieces added as well. The M-80A1 ICV, T-54/55 tank, and T-62 tank. The T-62 doesn't appear in the scenario. The other two do.

Scenario Description

This scenario is based on a TDG that appeared in the Marine Gazette back in 1996. You are the commander of A/1-18 IN, stationed in Bosnia. The local Serb population begins to rebel. During a move to relieve 82nd Airborne troops, civilians run up to your lead vehicles stating the Serbs was attacking and looting their village. Your commander decides it's time fight, and your mission changes from simplistic, to a nightmare. It's cold, cloudy, and the ROE leaves you naked.

The scenario can be dowloaded from the HQ Warfare ATF scenario forum here. (http://www.wargames.warfarehq.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)

Good luck.

KG_Norad
07 Dec 03, 13:54
Thank you once again DP! While I have not yet played any of the mod scenarios from any of you great authors yet. When I do expect to see some aar's:)

Michael

Deltapooh
07 Dec 03, 14:44
I updated the scenario, adding holes. I slept on this because adding holes in an urban environment didn't seem realistic, particularly when the enemy's had little time to prepare. However, for the sake of gameplay, I did it anyway.

So you can d/l v1.1

Ivan Rapkinov
08 Dec 03, 02:47
DP: I wonder if the solution to the TDG works as well in ATF as it did in TacOps when we tried this one :D

one AAR coming up.

Ivan Rapkinov
08 Dec 03, 05:23
okay, this is annoying :D

my Apaches die before they can fire, even though my FIST track has LOS of all the enemy vehicles - those M80 ICVs hit everything they aim at lol :) I know they're good, but I assume a sprinting NOE helo might be at least a little hard to hit...

and the T55s aren't too far behind in the swatting the helos stakes :)

nice scn though - if I could get near the town, I'd do an AAR - I think I might use Digger's method for room clearing on this one - all I need is a battery of 155s and that towns cleared :D

Ivan Rapkinov
08 Dec 03, 05:32
notes: smoke does nada against the M80 - given that the T55s camp right next to them, it might be of benefit, but it's the M80s that are doing the damage.

These ROEs make it interesting to try and identify before firing - ofc, by the time identification comes through, the vehcile in question can't fire back because it;s a smoking ruin :D

I just can't get over how easily my helos are dropping out of the sky. Maybe I'm using the wrong SOPs and orders, but they're going down at over 2km from afaict, M80 gun shots.

any advice on proper ATF helo usage would be appreciated :)

Ivan Rapkinov
08 Dec 03, 05:34
I think I might try "dismount madness" againt these pesky M80s - pop a few Javelin teams in the northern treeline, and then vamoosh the M80s that way :)

Ivan Rapkinov
08 Dec 03, 08:50
managed to complete, sort of.

good thing the actual scn had no time limit...

going as much as possible by the ROEs, I didn't fire on anything until I had confirmation, no mortars fired against the urban positions (not sure about that one - 120mm seems to warrant circumspection with civilians about, but mortars, with their plunging fire, are the weapon of choice in an urban fight.)I did lay smake with mortars, as I thought that'd be okay.

Lost both helos again - I think the Saggers on the M80s are actually the things killing it - as I'm getting smoked at rnage beyond which the cannon can reach. The other helo got shot down by small arms fire as I flanked the town.

the Javelins refused to fire at anything :D - also, why does the Javelin have a ADA bonus?

Deltapooh
08 Dec 03, 10:31
It's a tough scenario. I paid more attention to defensive tactics than ever before. I know where everything is, and exactly what is supposed to happen, and still got slammed.

The M-80A1 ICVs are the enemy's most powerful weapon. They are also his reserve force. His COA is to commit reserves should BLUEFOR attempt to flank village, or launch a major attack. There is a decisive point near the village, where if crossed, the infantry will attack, and he will commit his reserves.

My advice, carefully manever your Bradley's into an ambush position. Then send an economy of force of two or three infantry teams to faint an attack. The enemy shouldn't fire his AT missiles at them. Once you see the M80's and T-55s moving out, let those Bradleys shred them, while pushing a tank or two forward to support your infantry. Keep them 1.5 km or more from the village. The armor engagement might last a no more than two minutes, but when it's over, you should have killed all the enemy's armor with few casualties, if any.

From there, you can then outflank the village. Just watch out. The right flank is very dangerous. The enemy is armed with a few AT-7 Saxhorns and RGP-7s.

The terrain can be frightening as well. You are operating on a very narrow front. I should have noted this, but forgot. The Mine fields are accurately marked. In my head I imagined it as being a leftover of the war. So you don't have to worry about that.

As for your helicopters, there is very little you can do to save them. I would not move them forward until all the armor is dead. Even then, they are not safe because the enemy has some heavy firepower, including the PKM. They'll light'em up from a good distance. They are best positioned on the southern side of the village. Assign them a long looping flight path. You might be able to sneak them close enough to do something.

As for the Javelin, that is Kbluck's doing. I used his database for this scenario.

Hope this helps.

kbluck
08 Dec 03, 12:56
Lost both helos again - I think the Saggers on the M80s are actually the things killing it - as I'm getting smoked at rnage beyond which the cannon can reach. The other helo got shot down by small arms fire as I flanked the town.

You are probably correct --- it is likely the ATGMs shooting down the helos.

First of all, about the Javelins --- they have an ADA bonus because they have a specific anti-helicopter capability. Normally, the gunner selects a top-down attack for ground vehicles, but he can also select a direct-attack profile, and Javelin will track and hit helos.

To a lesser extent, any wire-guided missile can be used against helos, especially when they are hovering or coming in head-on. Unfortunately, the game makes no allowances for two things: the time of flight of the missile, during which the gunner may be suppressed or the target may dodge behind cover, and the fact that most wire-guided missiles couldn't track a target traversing very rapidly in azimuth. These factors would serve to put a significant limit on real-world ATGM fire against helos.

I struggled with this a bit in my head when designing the database. At the time, I was inclined to be generous towards ATGMs. Based on playtesting since then, however, I plan to revoke the ADA attribute for *most* ATGMs (but not Javelin.) However, even without ADA, the capability of ATGMs to kill helos is still formidable, so I will also take the additional step of zeroing the pK for most ATGMs vs. Helos, to make sure they're not fired at all. Again, not totally realistic, but less unrealistic than the present situation.

All that said, helicopters *are* very vulnerable, even "armored" ones like Apache, and I have no remorse over most small-arms and small-caliber cannon's capability to shoot them down in short order.

--- Kevin

kbluck
08 Dec 03, 13:28
I've made those changes to my online copy of the database. I've been meaning to for a while, anyway, but now that somebody actually noticed the issue, it seems like a good time to actually do it.

I also addressed some visibility issues that have been bugging me. I still found dismounts too visible, so I have further reduced their cross-section to make them harder to see. Conversely, I have increased the size of helicopters to the full rotor width, which will tend to make them much more visible, especially to radar ADA units with longer view ranges. Use of terrain masking will be imperative if your helos are to survive. Finally, I have generally cut the view ranges on most types of units, with the exception of radar units and recon types. This will serve to further reduce the supremacy of ATGMs (unobstructed fire lanes are tough to find), further reduce the visibility of dismounts, and as a side benefit, possibly improve performance in large scenarios.

As always, the latest database is available from the downloads area:

http://www.wargames.warfarehq.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206

However, installing this won't immediately fix the issue in DP's scenario, as he generated a "copy" database for the scenario (as is good practice in ATF.) It'll be up to him to update that if he agrees that helos are excessively vulnerable to ATGMs.

--- Kevin

kbluck
08 Dec 03, 15:53
the Javelins refused to fire at anything

Some things to check with regard to this:

Keep in mind that it does take a certain amount of time for ATGM teams to emplace before they can fire. Check to make sure that "Do Not Emplace" SOP is *not* set on your dismounts if you want them to start shooting soon, or they'll never emplace no matter how long you wait. If they're not emplaced, they won't fire. This is an easy thing to overlook.

Secondly, make sure you have "red" line of sight from the firing unit to the intended targets. Check this by opening the "Info" dialog on your units of interest. You'll see lines radiating to all the targets they can see. No line means no fire at all; yellow means suppress only. Only Red means they can kill the target. You can't just go by the enemy's icon; they may be "red-spotted" by somebody on your side, but not the unit you actually want to shoot at them. This is a common source of confusion with helicopters.

And, of course, the obvious: make sure your shooters are not on "Hold Fire" SOP.

When it comes to the "dismount sneak" I recommend keeping the missile teams on Hold Fire until they're all in position, emplaced, and with good red LOSes. This has the side benefit of making them harder to spot. Then, multiselect the units you want to fire and turn off Hold Fire all at once. They'll all fire simultaneously, hopefully wasting the target before they get any chance to shoot back. If you keep them at the 2km+ range the Javelin allows, however, it is doubtful the enemy will ever see them, even moving. Shorter range missiles like Dragon can make for some heartrate-elevating situations.

--- Kevin

Ivan Rapkinov
08 Dec 03, 22:00
actually in the end I used SOP for the Aussie army mech units - dismount and advance on foot with APc and MBT support - not use the MBTs as an assault force all by themselves.

Tried it again, managed to bust up most of the Serb infantry, and wiped out the armor. Very little usage of mech forces - lots of sneaking and then assaulting with my inf.

Kevin: playtesting the Colossus scn, and had a Charlie G SRAAW team up against a T-72 at about 50m - that was...interesting :D (btw, the Javelins had LOs were emplaced, just wouldn't shoot

Pat Proctor
09 Dec 03, 00:16
I have not taken a look at this part of the database, but it is possible that either the pK against Javelin for the thing you wanted to shoot at was 0, or you had the 'hold fire' order on by accident (it happens to the best of us ;)).

kbluck
09 Dec 03, 12:29
Kevin: playtesting the Colossus scn, and had a Charlie G SRAAW team up against a T-72 at about 50m - that was...interesting

Yes, using my database, if the terrain is congested (urban/heavy vegetation) infantry are going to be able to get *very* close to armor. That's why they break their humps lugging around those big, heavy rocket launchers, right? Tankers justifiably fear "close encounters" with infantry.



(btw, the Javelins had LOs were emplaced, just wouldn't shoot

If they wouldn't shoot, it was for one of the reasons I mentioned, or perhaps as Pat mentioned there was a zero pK, although that would surely be a data entry error since I can't think of any ground vehicle a Javelin couldn't kill from any angle. ATF troops don't just get surly and slack off. On the other hand, they have little personal initiative. They do *exactly* what they're told, even if it's not what you meant.

--- Kevin