This is getting depressing

[Heldenkaiser]

I keep getting hit by seemingly inexplicable early turn ends. 1-2 combat rounds of strictly controlled LA/ML eat up my turn as if I were attacking fortified places with IL settings and units nearly out of MP. I can't really say what's happening ... it's like a curse. I used to be able to easily get 6-8 and more rounds of combats per turn, and I am doing exactly what I did before, but it no longer works. I am really getting sick and tired of it ... and, unfortunately, this is sort of slowly, but inexorably killing my interest in TOAW. A great game, certainly, but this is a bit too much left to chance for my liking. :OHNO: :nervous:

[General Staff]

I'd suggest you post over at Matrix with your concerns. And keep saving turns pre-combat to try to reproduce the issue- if you can document exactly what's happening/going wrong you're MUCH more likely to get prompt attention than coming forward with 'it seems' or 'I think'- there's far too much of that around at the best of times and it's heavily discounted by those in the know. Empirical evidence and an audit trail is what's required, but produce it and folks will sit up, take notice and bring all guns to bear to fix.

[General Staff]

And please don't let this get you down. It will eventually get sorted and/or explained to everyone's understanding.

[Heldenkaiser]

Thank you, G.S. I did post at the Matrix forum, but I am still in the dark ... the reply mainly indicated that getting 2 rounds is "more normal" than getting 8, which I don't doubt ... I'll keep digging for an answer.

Did you have a chance to have a look at the files I sent you? I keep having that nagging suspicion that it is something plainly obvious that I am doing wrong ... obvious except to me that is. :nervous:

[General Staff]

Did you have a chance to have a look at the files I sent you? I keep having that nagging suspicion that it is something plainly obvious that I am doing wrong ... obvious except to me that is. :nervous:
I reran your turn 3b which took the turn down to 70% used- some combats took 2 rounds and some started with less than 100% MPs remaining (you'd moved them slightly- 16/19 say) so it's what I'd expect.

I ran 4a some of whose combats 'continued' twice in the detailed combat report indicating a second and third round, taking you down to 70% left (all combats seemed to be with units with 100% MPs remaining) which would be correct.

The answers you get at Matrix don't surprise me- everyone has a 'seat of the pants' opinion but a lot of folks are often short on hard evidence (particularly it seems to me and surprisingly designers who often come up with the most patently incorrect and bizarre suggestions).

All the more reason to keep collecting data- just save every round before you execute it and given the # of times this appears to have happened sooner or later you should strike lucky and have the hard evidence to convince all and sundry. It may be a pain, but it will help everyone.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I did at least check what you gave me. Unfortunately I can't reproduce the issue and that's where we need to get to for folks to fix.

[Heldenkaiser]

I reran your turn 3b which took the turn down to 70% used- some combats took 2 rounds and some started with less than 100% MPs remaining (you'd moved them slightly- 16/19 say) so it's what I'd expect.


That's interesting. They showed a single square in the planner nevertheless, so I thought it would be safe. So the planner is just an approximation?


All the more reason to keep collecting data- just save every round before you execute it and given the # of times this appears to have happened sooner or later you should strike lucky and have the hard evidence to convince all and sundry. It may be a pain, but it will help everyone.

Absolutely, I will do that. Thank you. :smoke:


Sorry I can't be more helpful ...

No, you are extremely helpful as always, and I thank you again for your time. If I should ever be in a position where I can help others the way you (and others) have helped me consistently these past weeks, you can count on me. :shy:

[Heldenkaiser]

.... more confusing, too. :surprise:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1243771&mpage=1&key=�

[General Staff]

That's interesting. They showed a single square in the planner nevertheless, so I thought it would be safe. So the planner is just an approximation?
I haven't really used it since I started playing, and that was a while ago. I did check it in this instance and it indicated at least 10% would get used in both cases. If 3a took 10%, I'd expect 2 rounds to take you down from 90% to 70%. So it seems accurate and that's also my recollection from the days I did use it (BTW 61,27 is an example of 16/19).

[Heldenkaiser]

I haven't really used it since I started playing, and that was a while ago. I did check it in this instance and it indicated at least 10% would get used in both cases. If 3a took 10%, I'd expect 2 rounds to take you down from 90% to 70%. So it seems accurate and that's also my recollection from the days I did use it (BTW 61,27 is an example of 16/19).

Actually, come to think about it, I believe there is no "no" squares in the planner, so units with no MP used are treated the same way as units with 10% used. :surprise:

But there is 90% left of a turn, which likely one can get only with units that haven't moved at all. Learn something new every day.

BTW for me the first round of combats resolved as 60%, not 70%, in both cases, IIRC.

[Heldenkaiser]

.... more confusing, too. :surprise:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1243771&mpage=1&key=�


I found this statement most interesting, and of general interest too, provided it's true (I am not sure).

"The current % of the turn is not saved with the file. So when you load a saved game the game thinks you haven't used any of the turn at all, and as such if none of your combats last more than one round you can get the same % remaining as you had on the last round. Otherwise the best you can get is nine rounds, since the game will always decrement the % of the turn remaining and will never give you another round at 10% remaining."

If it *is* true, saving a PBEM would come close to cheating. But I save all the time ... :nervous:

[General Staff]

.... more confusing, too. :surprise:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1243771&mpage=1&key=�
I just got through this. To clarify:

1) Shock CAN give you more than 10 rounds. But not often though I have seen/heard of it.
2) MRPB if it works as advertised will mean a combat in 2WIN won't go more than 3 rounds. Now if on round 1 of your turn you move a unit 5 out of 10 MPs before attacking, ALL your combats will start at the 50% of turn used level- so you will end up with 20% remaining worst case scenario. The caveat here is that you can STILL fail a proficiency check which means your turn will end REGARDLESS of what combats you've set up (not sure if it can happen before any combat or after each round- check manual).
3) What is new is the SAL file generated at the end of the turn setting everyone to 0MPs. In prior TOAW versions it was possible to fail a proficiency check and then reload your turn hoping your opponent wouldn't notice and play on after the Failed PC, since the MPs remained as they were at the point of failure. What that means in practice for debugging is it's not longer possible to determine it was a failed PC that caused your early turn end since you show 0MPs, whereas it was before TOAWIII. Now you don't know if it was a badly planned attack sequence OR a failed PC (or both!).

So we're left at present having to assume that it was a failed PC that caused the early turn end. Unless you can prove by saving files pre-combat execution that combats ARE taking more than the 3 rounds the MRPB rating should allow. Your choice.

Proficiency Check Failure is a perennial issue, given potential scales of TOAW scenarios. For instance you can be running a June 22 1941 turn of Drang Nach Osten- essentially the entire (or a big part of the) Barbarossa campaign at divisional level- and fail a proficiency check round 1 of turn 1 as Axis. That pretty much ends your prospects of success for the next few years as Axis, though the Kremlin's bells will no doubt ring for many days in wild and joyous celebration.

And prior to the MRPB rating, a Soviet 20mm AA unit in Vilnius could hold up the entire Barbarossa campaign with a superhuman display of heroics lasting many rounds against the full weight of multiple German Panzer Divisions.

One option was to raise the Formation Proficiency of one or both sides to 100% or thereabouts, but I understand that's no guarantee. You might want to pursue this avenue of inquiry at Matrix also.

I'm (unfortunately for you lot) just a simple soul interested in getting my side to win at 2WIN, not some hotshot scenario designer.

[Hank2]

As I read through this thread, it appears there's another part of the attack planning dialog window that "may" give questionable information. ... the % of turn used plus the prediction at the bottom of the window (which has been discussed in another thread).

this attack planning box needs some work imho.

someone slap me if I spoke out of turn

later
Hank

[Heldenkaiser]

Thanks for the clarifications, G.S. :)

I can live with the proficiency check failure explanation. Though being hit two times in a row is a bit hard, in a 12 turn scenario where everything depends on speed in the first turns, at least bad luck is less confusing than an unsolved mystery.

Whether so much dependency on mere chance--chance that has no real life parallel (ever heard of a whole army just freezing at 10 AM?)--is a good thing in a wargame is a different matter of course. :nervous:

[Heldenkaiser]

That last reply (#17) in the thread

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1243771&mpage=1&key=�

is particularly unsettling, if true.

[General Staff]

As I read through this thread, it appears there's another part of the attack planning dialog window that "may" give questionable information. ... the % of turn used plus the prediction at the bottom of the window (which has been discussed in another thread).

this attack planning box needs some work imho.

someone slap me if I spoke out of turn.l
No need for slaps- leave that to designers.;)

The prediction at bottom ('you're likely to die' as you attack a truck with a Panzerfaust or 'you shouldn't have any problems' as you take on a Tiger head on with a 37mm AT gun etc...) has always been something of a joke. Ignore. But the % of turn used has usually been reliable and I'd be very surprised if this has changed.

All told I don't use any of it, preferring instinct and a trusty calculator- its main virtue is calculating % of turn used keeps you on your toes and avoids silly mistakes and overlooked attacks that take too long.