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Mike Cox
29 Jun 06, 13:30
What makes the tactical level so appealing? Whether SB, ASL, SP, CM or others, there is a certain draw to gaming at this level.

What I like are the stories that develop (and I guess that is true for all levels of wargaming) on a basic level. Individual leaders or squads making a difference in the bigger picture. (Actually, the treatment of leadership in SB is why it is one of my favorites, but that is a separate thread altogether.)

That is also one of the reasons I like linked campaigns of scenarios. Seeing a leader or battered squad that performed well make it through always adds a little spice to the game.

Navarone
29 Jun 06, 17:25
I agree wholeheartedly Mike. As well, even in campaigns which were absolutely one-sided operationally, tactical problems can always be researched which provide for a balanced scenario. Now what I like about campaigns is that you are able to make operational decisions (albeit limited) and still resolve your decisions at the tactical level.

I Tactically Remain,

Mike Cox
30 Jun 06, 16:25
. Now what I like about campaigns is that you are able to make operational decisions (albeit limited) and still resolve your decisions at the tactical level.

Well that is another good aspect of the campaign setting.

I was thinking of the game we just finished where the AT gun with stood some serious Japanese assaults. They finally took out that last tank, abandoned the AT gun and get ready to get out of dodge with the personal weapons at hand. It was an interesting storyline that developed. Or the bravery of the squad who worked up to take out the armored car with the Boys ATR... Good stories all.

liuzg150181
01 Jul 06, 00:56
What makes the tactical level so appealing? Whether SB, ASL, SP, CM or others, there is a certain draw to gaming at this level.

My answer to that is really simple,anything above tactical level would result in abstract representation of the units(for example using NATO symbols),thus tactical level is the only level that allows physical representation of the units,which means that it is easier to bolster up its aesthetic appeal.

Aries
01 Jul 06, 01:23
To further add, beyond tactical, other aspects creep in that often end up more about work, less about play.

In some cases, research, production and politics become necessary to design into the game. Not always an easy thing.

Tactical is less vulnerable to events that were so utterly decided in real life too.

Hertston
02 Jul 06, 08:51
I generally prefer tactical level games (there are exceptions) because they tend, IMHO, to be a lot less "gamey". What I mean by that is that even with 'old-fashioned' turn based styles, like Squad Battles, you don't really think that much about getting the most out the 'system', and you think a lot more about 'real' tactics. With pausible continuous-time games - thinking of the Prosim ATF series here - 'gamey' almost disappears and you really have a feel you are commanding soldiers not cardboard counters.

By contrast, take TOAW 3. I'd better make clear that I'm really enjoying it having picked up the Matrix release, and its scope and flexibility will probably make it a favourite over the next few years. BUT, while it is a pure wargame, and does encourage real tactics, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that they way to win is not having a mastery of operational warfare (not that I have! :nuts: ), but a mastery of the intricacies of the game rules and grabbing every last piece of advantage out of them that you can. Those rules generally represent 'real' factors, sure, but there application can come across as very 'gamey' at times - and on occasion it feels more like some super-complex set of chess rules and not a wargame at all. The SSG games are much the same. At the operational level only the Airborne Assault series has really broken away from that, using pretty much the same system as the Prosim games I mentioned earlier, only on the larger scale.

Aries
02 Jul 06, 11:58
Nah, "gamey" as a word, only enters the conversation, when a fan of a game has played it so often, that an opponent that hasn't gets totally "owned" by a trick of the design the experienced gamer is familiar with.

I have seen "gamey" in every wargame I have ever played.

From driving around Kubelwagens in Steel Panthers as disposable scouts, to hex grid patterned line defenses in operational and grand strategy board games, to the classic zerg rush in RTS, all games have their share of "gamey".

Navarone
02 Jul 06, 13:30
I generally prefer tactical level games (there are exceptions) because they tend, IMHO, to be a lot less "gamey".



I think that this is a function of the scale, Tactical, and why I enjoy that scale so much. Tactical games require less abstraction to create a scenario.

All Operational games must abstract functions and artificially limit force structures in order to create a simulation.

For instance, to create an Operational Simulation of The Bulge you would have to decide what parts of the theater geographically you would use and what parts you would not. What forces could reinforce, what chances they had to reinforce.....and right there you are abstracting. When people say "Gamey" they mean Taking Advantage of the Limits Inherant in the System to Attempt to Gain Advantage. TALISAGA. New word. :hmmm:

I Wordsmithingly Remain,

Wodin
03 Jul 06, 08:04
Its also a great level to get your imagination flowing.

I find tactical level easier to undertsand aswell. The only other game above squad level I can really get into is the Panther Games series.

Ozgur Budak
09 Aug 06, 19:41
The thrill of holding your trigger while watching an enemy tank moving towards your positions.

Watching the sound of enemy artillery and waiting to see if they calculated the target hex accurately.

Silently watching enemy platoon coming into the killing field you deployed carefully. Trying to avoid your heart saying FIRE FIRE FIRE. No just wait one more turn.

Killing an enemy officer and pinning his squad with a sniper in the woods from 20 hexes. Redeploying the sniper and watching enemy throwing everything he has to the -now empty- hex the shot fired.

Tactical rules

TheBigRedOne
10 Aug 06, 14:13
Tactical rules

Based on Ozgur's winning % on The Blitz, I'd say that he rules....

;)

Someday soon, I'll take on that challenge, just to see what it's like to get my butt kicked by a professional...

Ozgur Budak
10 Aug 06, 14:34
Someday soon, I'll take on that challenge

Thanks for your kind words. What about ES scenario "Hide and Seek"? I made it some time ago. Never played since then. Or any other one you'd like. Just drop me a line :salute:

Dazooz
25 Feb 07, 16:15
I note that I have not had the privilage of being beaten by you either Ozgur.

Got room for another game sometime?

Ozgur Budak
26 Feb 07, 17:10
Sure Jason. Any title preference?

Dazooz
27 Feb 07, 00:24
I haven't explored Tour of Duty much, are there any good 2 player scenarios there?

Ozgur Budak
27 Feb 07, 07:47
TOD is fine. I have to check the scenario though. Havent played that for a long time. Lets contact with mail. My adress: ozgurbudak<at>gmail.com

Dazooz
28 Feb 07, 00:44
Right. Email sent.

Rifleman95th
02 Mar 07, 15:06
The thrill of holding your trigger while watching an enemy tank moving towards your positions.

Watching the sound of enemy artillery and waiting to see if they calculated the target hex accurately.

Silently watching enemy platoon coming into the killing field you deployed carefully. Trying to avoid your heart saying FIRE FIRE FIRE. No just wait one more turn.

Killing an enemy officer and pinning his squad with a sniper in the woods from 20 hexes. Redeploying the sniper and watching enemy throwing everything he has to the -now empty- hex the shot fired.

Tactical rules

Right on the button.

I enjoy tactical for a simple reason...I find it the most fun :) I play it in my <limited> spare time so it has to be enjoyable.

Oz has described it perfectly. It is the one on one contest that draws me in (and probably why I prefer turn based to real time or "we go"). I love seeing two units go head to head - a bit like sports really. Conversely I find the more strategic games bland - they lack the visceral contest.

Squad battles is a superb wee game.

Nik