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amrcg
31 Jul 03, 09:08
Hi

Where can I find a manual with the russian military symbols used in the enemy SITTEMP?

Cheers,
Antonio

Talon xBMCx
31 Jul 03, 16:42
Antonio,

They are still working on the online help for ATF. You can check the BCT (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/prosim/online_help/bcthowto.htm) for the graphic explanations .

Hope this helps,


Talon

Hard to see the BCT is hotlinked. Here is the URL

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/prosim/online_help/bcthowto.htm

Pat Proctor
31 Jul 03, 17:19
There is also a section in the manual on Soviet Graphics (you do own the release version of the game, right?;))

page 70.

amrcg
07 Aug 03, 11:05
>There is also a section in the manual on Soviet Graphics
Isn't there a more complete document in the guise of an FM?

>(you do own the release version of the game, right?
I'm waiting for it, Captain! It's on the way to Portugal. I'm playing the upgraded demo in the meanwhile. By the way, could you provide some tips on how to win the Death Valley Defense scenario? The infantry strongpoint is really a challenge. Whenever I try to attack it with fire teams (which is the tactic you recommend in the BCT manual) I am smoked by those damn AT-5s (I know that you are tired of this complaint by now =), but I have to support Kevin on this one - his number crunching is worth having a look).

By the way, what is the formula you use to calculate pH values?


Cheers,
Antonio

kbluck
07 Aug 03, 17:26
Isn't there a more complete document in the guise of an FM?

FM 101-5-1 Download here:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/101-5-1/default.htm


In 1.01, it was at least possible to consider killing "Task Force ANGEL" with an infantry attack. There was also a "cheater's" way --- since AT-5s were much less deadly against dismounts then, you could use your infantry as "decoys" to run them out of ammo and then roll over them with a platoon of Bradleys or something.

In 1.02, there is just no good way to do it. Concentrated AT-5 units are pretty much unassailable. The only method I've been able to come up with that has even a whisper of a chance of success is to advance your infantry in tiny bounds, using mortar smoke to help conceal them, and not letting them move very long at one time. The instant they "yellow spot" an enemy, stop immediately and crush them with artillery. Then continue. This can be assisted by "blind firing" with single rounds at likely locations with mortars or other artillery, hoping to "smoke out" the enemy into moving so you can spot them easier. Even this method will usually result in massive casualties to your infantry, who will never fire a shot, and it is an open question whether you'll have enough to complete the strategy. And, of course, it bears little resemblance to anything the Infantry School might be teaching its future leaders as doctrine. They have some odd ideas there at Benning, like that infantry can be useful in the offense even if they don't have a guided missile.

The good news is, you really don't *have* to do anything about TF ANGEL. They're basically immobile and your defense is supposed to be set farther south anyway. As long as you skirt their position by a safe distance when moving in the vicinity, you can safely ignore them.

The way to win DVD is to set good firing positions for the bulk of your units and corral the enemy into a spot where their fire can be concentrated on him. You can't effectively cover the whole battlefield; you have to *make* the enemy go where you can kill him efficiently. The manual has a good discussion of the theory behind this. Use LOS fan! It takes me at least two hours to set in a TF defense *before* starting the clock. Think ahead --- find good positions, but also think about how your units will get into and out of them safely. Consider how you want the battle to flow and who will need to be where when and how they will get there.

Don't string obstacles about willy-nilly. Think about what you want to make the enemy do. Obstacles never stop the enemy by themselves. Only fire will do that. Every obstacle should serve a specific purpose in fooling or forcing the enemy into changing his plan in a way that makes it easier for you to destroy him.

Use your Javelins and a backstop of Bradleys to cover the obstacles that force the enemy into your kill zone. Set them back at the max range that still covers the obstacle adequately. Keep them hidden and silent (vehicles should be moving around, actually -- see below) until he brings forward his breaching units. Once you see lanes starting to be cut, take them off hold fire and let the breachers have it! Go silent again as soon as all breaching vehicles are done for. Don't waste scarce missiles on anything that can't get through the obstacle by itself. Once they lose their capability to breach, they *have* to bypass --- going right where you want them. Odds are they'll mill around in confusion for a while --- a good opportunity to let your artillery show them some love as well.

It helps if you can "string out" the enemy. Use FASCAM to delay one of the lead battalions so they don't hit you at the same time. It is easist in this case to delay the one in the west. If you can arrange to have them killed while breaching, so much the better, but the main purpose there is simply to delay them.

A big problem is keeping your defenders alive long enough to shoot. When they mass a battalion of DPICM against you, even an M1 in a hole has a very good chance of dying. To prevent that sort of "plinking" as much as possible, keep your defending units mobile and out of their holes until needed. It confuses the situation for enemy planners and your guys need to be looking out for enemy recon in their spare time anyway. They should be sliding into their fixed positions only a couple of minutes before the enemy's main body comes into range. (Don't forget to send them over in time!) Hit them hard with direct fire and pound the most likely path through the kill zone with overlapping volleys of open sheaf artillery for good measure. Once you toast the first battalion, get your defenders moving again until another comes into range, and again for the third if necessary.

Of course, it is also a good idea to eliminate enemy spotters wherever possible, and to use your recon to locate enemy fire direction units for counterbattery fire. Spotters can be hard to find, though, and you have to get *all* of the FDCs for the entire enemy battalion (usually six) to silence the battalion. Staying in motion is an affirmative defense that can largely neutralize enemy indirect fire even if they are able to spot. This applies to your artillery as well --- keep them leapfrogging. Ideally, don't stop them at all unless you have a mission for them very soon. Five minutes motionless is quite enough time for them to become targets.

There are a lot of things to keep straight and a lot of things to go wrong. Take heart --- even the pros routinely muff it up. At least you're not really getting people killed.

--- Kevin

amrcg
14 Aug 03, 12:31
FM 101-5-1 Download here:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/101-5-1/default.htm
--- Kevin

Yes, I know FM 101-5-1 but it is US symbols. I mean Russian military symbols. Is there any FM on the Russian symbols?

By the way Kevin, do you know how pH values are calculated?

Cheers,
Antonio

kbluck
14 Aug 03, 13:23
Yes, I know FM 101-5-1 but it is US symbols. I mean Russian military symbols. Is there any FM on the Russian symbols?

FM 101-5-1 has all the symbology used in the game, including the SITTEMP. Perhaps they're based at least in part on Soviet graphics, but the SITTEMP graphics *are* a matter of US doctrine. There may not be an exact picture in the FM of the specific symbol you're looking at, because the symbols are "built" from base units with modifiers for unit size, equipment subtypes and special capabilities, but the information for building and deciphering all the symbols is in there.

Now, if you're specifically interested in Soviet graphics in a historical sense, then no, there's no FM on that that specific topic that I'm aware of.



do you know how pH values are calculated?

As far as I know, that algorithm is buried in code and has not been published. The only modifier that I've noticed in the database that *might* have some impact on pH is "sight magnification".


--- Kevin

amrcg
14 Aug 03, 21:21
FM 101-5-1 has all the symbology used in the game, including the SITTEMP. Perhaps they're based at least in part on Soviet graphics, but the SITTEMP graphics *are* a matter of US doctrine. There may not be an exact picture in the FM of the specific symbol you're looking at, because the symbols are "built" from base units with modifiers for unit size, equipment subtypes and special capabilities, but the information for building and deciphering all the symbols is in there.
--- Kevin
mmm... I will believe you if you show me the sections that concern the "bear claws" symbol.

Cheers,
Antonio

Pat Proctor
15 Aug 03, 11:17
As far as I know, there is no military reference, which is why I included a brief overview in the User's Manual. Is there some symbol there that is not in the manual?

In the mid to late nineties, EVERYONE used the Soviet symbology. For some reason, near the end of the nineties, the army decided to abandon them for modifications of normal NATO symbology. I feel the communicate the FSU tactics and fighting style a lot better than NATO symbology does. It is a pity they were abandoned.

kbluck
15 Aug 03, 12:45
mmm... I will believe you if you show me the sections that concern the "bear claws" symbol.

You're right... I apologize. I remembered seeing such things years ago, but apparently it is no longer doctrine. Ergo, it is no longer in the manuals.

I suspect the tradition is carried on out at places like NTC, where they try to "live like the enemy".

--- Kevin

amrcg
15 Aug 03, 13:26
As far as I know, there is no military reference, which is why I included a brief overview in the User's Manual. Is there some symbol there that is not in the manual?

Nope. The manual is enough to decipher the enemy SITTEMP. By the way, it arrived yesterday!! I'm very happy! =)

My problem with the symbols is that I have some old issues of the "Soviet Military Magazine", which have small "tactical task exercise" (like those chess exercises that appear in the newspapers), prompting the reader to perform tactical decisions for the presented scenarios. The maps are full of russian symbology. The majority of symbols is easy to grasp, but there are some symbols that are not so easily understood without a reference.
I knew a site which listed those symbols, but it was written in russian... =(

Cheers,
Antonio

kbluck
15 Aug 03, 14:25
I knew a site which listed those symbols, but it was written in russian... =(

Do you still have that site's address? I can read some Russian.

--- Kevin

amrcg
16 Aug 03, 09:04
Do you still have that site's address? I can read some Russian.

--- Kevin

The URL was posted in the Russian Military Forum (http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/116312?it=17), but it is no longer valid:
http://www.freeport-tech.com/WWII/000_admin/009_symbols.html

And it was WWII symbols (hence a subset of modern symbols)... =(

Cheers,
Antonio

amrcg
16 Aug 03, 19:05
Hey Kevin!

I found a cool site in Russian:

http://www.armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/takznaki.shtml
http://www.armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/takznaki-2.shtml

Hope you enjoy!

Cheers,
Antonio

kbluck
18 Aug 03, 15:57
Hey Kevin!

I found a cool site in Russian:


Nice. It appears to be an "tank enthusiast" site, rather than any sort of military reference.

Here is a rough translation of the author's introduction (the part in italics.) He seems to think his article won't be of much use:

**************

From the author: This is the "alphabet" for military planners. (Note: this is far from complete. There are in total well over 600 tactical marks.) Do not think, having read a military chart that you can understand the hands that drew it. Also, having learned letters, does not mean that you have learned to read and will understand in depth the essence of great literature. Having studied tactical marks, it is possible to start to "spell" a map, but the skill to actually read a map will come not soon. In addition, to read a map, it is necessary to know at once two languages - the language of topographical marks and the language of tactical marks.

***************

But still no bearclaw! Grr! :mad:

If you're particularly interested in particular symbols, let me know and I'll tell you what they are. I don't have time to translate the whole shebang at the moment, and it wouldn't be much good without the matching pictures anyway...

--- Kevin