View Full Version : Who is thinking of new ASL maps?
What new ASL maps are needed?
What types of terrain are missing from the existing 1-52? boards?
What are your ideas? I does not hurt to dream.
Same old story...We need more open ground boards, more tiny to small village ( narrow streets ) boards, more large and logicall city boards ( maybe with industrial complexes ) and of course MORE PTO boards :D
That´s from me
MK
Well in order to do Russia realistically, we need some boards with nothing more on them, than the British modules desert boards have on them.
But I suppose you can use the British boards and just tell yourself the board is green :)
Then you could add maybe an overlay for a small villiage stuck out in the middle of nowhere on maybe three desert boards pretending to be the Russian steppe.
Might need a stream overlay that would stretch clear across more than one board.
PTO could be the same. Just use a Desert board and decide every hex in jungle. Seems about right. But you might need to use a board with differing elevations. Could just use those boards with hills and say every hex is wooded with jungle terrain in it :)
I voted no limit, but what the heck, like anyone actually believes we will ever see them?
Boards are expensive in todays world. We are lucky to get regular supplies of the original designs.
The new board in the SK style are a lot less expensive than the old boards (see AoO with 4 mounted boards at $112 and BV3 with 10 SK style boards at $95.00)
I think the new style will allow for more boards, even MMP was talking about putting boards in Journals which has never happened before.
I would like to see more boards, but not slight changes of existing boards. Let's see some Steppe boards and unique landscape...I even like the idea of Ocean boards (could add large overlays for islands)...then get new overlays....(the runway overlay mention for the Rotterdam mod sounds cool) the possiblities are endless
My Motto never enough _______ you fill in the proper ASL item
I voted no new boards. But my opinion is fairly well known here, so I will just vote, tell you how I voted, and then be quiet before Ron accuses me of having an agenda....... :p
1. Then you could add maybe an overlay for a small villiage stuck out in the middle of nowhere on maybe three desert boards pretending to be the Russian steppe.
2. Might need a stream overlay that would stretch clear across more than one board.
1. How about a single board with a small village surrounded by Desert (as Steppe) boards? Probably roads are not needed in this case, but a gully or two might be.
2. I was actually thinking of a long winding stream stretching over most of a flat board, with a few gullies, and a village or two, when I decided to make this poll.
Frank
Mike te Younger
19 Jun 05, 13:30
must .... have .... more .... boar :dead:
Corporal Kindel
19 Jun 05, 13:35
Same old story...We need more open ground boards, more tiny to small village ( narrow streets ) boards, more large and logicall city boards ( maybe with industrial complexes ) and of course MORE PTO boards :D
That´s from me
MK
More city boards!! there must be at least 10 city boards now, and an unlimited combination of buildings using building overlays.
I voted no new boards. But my opinion is fairly well known here, so I will just vote, tell you how I voted, and then be quiet before Ron accuses me of having an agenda.......
I voted with you, though I'm sure we're in the minority. I simply don't see the need for more geoboards with 52 available now and hundreds of overlays. I think every terrain feature on earth can be represented with the current tools available to scenario designers .. not to mention how large my stack of boards is becoming (or the bulk & weight when toting them to tournaments!).
But maybe more boards if we need to represent Martian landscapes?? or Venusian?? Earthly .. I think we got that covered very well.
Next poll should be how much will people pay for new boards, should they be sold in groups at discounted prices (or one at at time), how many should be released per year, and do they need to be sold in conjunction with playtested scenarios (or would people buy the boards by themselves if scenario designers agreed to make scenarios for them once available).
Is there anyone who wants to design scenarios for boards that are not distributed to players (?)
Frank
Corporal Kindel
19 Jun 05, 13:41
Don't forgot to add an item in the poll -- no new boards & make the cost of the new module cheaper as a result.
Don't forgot to add an item in the poll -- no new boards & make the cost of the new module cheaper as a result.
His vote - no new boards but new other products and modules without boards.
What kind of modules did you have in mind?
Frank
Corporal Kindel
19 Jun 05, 14:21
True, I guess there aren't too many modules left to do. I was thinking specifically about the core modules, but with AOO & Haka Paale I don't see there being a need for more core modules. HASLs obviously will need mapsheets (though not geo boards). I guess potentially there is room for Korea module (which I heard rumors about somewhere), but IMO even that wouldn't need new geo-boards (assuming it's a module and not an HASL).
Next poll should be how much will people pay for new boards, should they be sold in groups at discounted prices (or one at at time), how many should be released per year, and do they need to be sold in conjunction with playtested scenarios (or would people buy the boards by themselves if scenario designers agreed to make scenarios for them once available).
Is there anyone who wants to design scenarios for boards that are not distributed to players (?)
Frank
I wouldn't mind having access to individual boards. The cost of a single board would likely be steep if sold single, but 10 bucks for just one board is in my reach even if a bit pricey just for a board. 50 bucks for a small set of boards, nope, I never seem to have cash lying around in those sums to spend on what really is just an over rated indulgence.
Truth be known, I can make my own boards. Not complicated. Scan current boards, cut apart on a graphics program, piece back into a new image on a graphics program, print out image, presto entirely new board and I only needed to understand the graphics program, no artistic talent required.
The only problem with new boards and or new scenarios, is if you don't have either the scenario, or the board, you are stuck unable to use the thing if it requires the other.
Not that that is genuinely a problem. Only a problem if you are trying to sell the items. Because who wants to buy something that needs something else in order to play it?
Oh wait, forgot what game I was talking about :)
True, I guess there aren't too many modules left to do. I was thinking specifically about the core modules, but with AOO & Haka Paale I don't see there being a need for more core modules. HASLs obviously will need mapsheets (though not geo boards). I guess potentially there is room for Korea module (which I heard rumors about somewhere), but IMO even that wouldn't need new geo-boards (assuming it's a module and not an HASL).
Modules and Action Packs so far provide new boards to cover the scenarios released with them. That might change in the future but apparently the next two Action Packs and, from what I know, the Korean War module will include geoboards with them. The geo boards for the Korean War will have terrain that is not available on existing boards. Again, from what I have heard, and this might change.
What non-HASL modules could be produced in future that would not need new boards? These would presumably not be core modules, but some supplemental modules.
New terrain is a key reason to add new boards with new modules. Maybe some modules in future will include overlays only - but that would not be my personal preference.
Frank
da priest
19 Jun 05, 15:10
Strange poll.
It appears to assume, that there are only 2 kinds of boards, mounted and unmounted, in the future.
1. Hawka Luggie will have the last mounted board in the sytem, put out by MMP. End of that discussion.
2. There will NEVER be any more unmounted boards in the world put out by MMP, EVER...end of that discussion.
3. Now what kinda SK style boards do you guys want AFTER the thousands(well maybe 12) of newbies get all the old ones reprinted(remember newbies come first)?:dead:
More boards, certainly, and they must be backed!
I cannot stand these paper-placemat boards... they are fine... no, perfect for HASLs and CG maps, but not for scenarios where one has to mix and match geomorphics.
I am totally in favour of the 'old' boards being reprinted (backed of course) and in as many new boards as possible being made too... I have Beyond the Beachhead and use those 2 boards (HOB III & IV)in my SASL games with much joy... because they are new and unusual.
Like other posters i am in favour of more delightfully convoluted PTO terrain-type boards and would love to see at least a few Russian Steppe boards (though using the desert boards is a good idea for that!).
I totally agree that there must be more options available for city fighting! I must know the LOS of board 1 of-by-heart by now!
Strange poll.
1. Hawka Luggie will have the last mounted board in the sytem, put out by MMP. End of that discussion.
2. There will NEVER be any more unmounted boards in the world put out by MMP, EVER...end of that discussion.
Strange answer...
:hmmm:
Are you saying that there will be no more mounted boards after Hawka Luggie ( :laugh: ) or that there will ONLY be mounted boards with the exception of the SK? Do you have an errant 'un-' in there?
I think we have a terminology breakdown here.
Mounted = image adhered to 1/8th inch rigid backing ala the old Avalon Hill way.
Unmounted = just paper, not rigid card stock, actual paper ala the way most other wargames not from Avalon Hill have been made for years.
The Starter Kit style is neither mounted or unmounted. It's not a paper surface attached or not attached to a board. It's card stock and a whole new ball game.
Hence we need a term.
Might as well start refering to them as card stock boards.
Now as for continuing on with the survey, I assume anything new will be cardstock, and the only way you will be seeing mounted, is if you have found old stock on a shelf under a layer of dust, or on eBay.
I have only encountered unmounted once. Long ago they released 1-4 unmounted as the hex grid had been slightly adjusted at the time. It was a then perk to have them.
I expect to see paper type for HASL maps, as they tend to be odd size and not atypically of the core run of isomorphic format. They are delicate because of this, but you deal with the same way you have dealt with it for every non AH wargame over the years.
Since the boards for AoO and HP were printed long long ago they will be the last two mods with old style mounted boards
Since unmounted boards were actually overruns of the maps for old style mounted boards there will be no more unmounted boards
There will only be SK style boards in reprints and new mods post AoO and HP (read after boards 48, 49, 50, 51 and 52)
Corporal Kindel
19 Jun 05, 22:04
New terrain is a key reason to add new boards with new modules. Maybe some modules in future will include overlays only - but that would not be my personal preference.
Frank
What new terrain is there that can't be represented by any combination of existing geo-boards, overlays, and/or terrain SSRs (outside of HASLs)?
Since the boards for AoO and HP were printed long long ago they will be the last two mods with old style mounted boards
Since unmounted boards were actually overruns of the maps for old style mounted boards there will be no more unmounted boards
There will only be SK style boards in reprints and new mods post AoO and HP (read after boards 48, 49, 50, 51 and 52)
Alles Clar!
I think we have a terminology breakdown here.
Mounted = image adhered to 1/8th inch rigid backing ala the old Avalon Hill way.
Unmounted = just paper, not rigid card stock, actual paper ala the way most other wargames not from Avalon Hill have been made for years.
The Starter Kit style is neither mounted or unmounted. It's not a paper surface attached or not attached to a board. It's card stock and a whole new ball game.
Hence we need a term.
Might as well start refering to them as card stock boards.
Now as for continuing on with the survey, I assume anything new will be cardstock, and the only way you will be seeing mounted, is if you have found old stock on a shelf under a layer of dust, or on eBay.
I have only encountered unmounted once. Long ago they released 1-4 unmounted as the hex grid had been slightly adjusted at the time. It was a then perk to have them.
I expect to see paper type for HASL maps, as they tend to be odd size and not atypically of the core run of isomorphic format. They are delicate because of this, but you deal with the same way you have dealt with it for every non AH wargame over the years.
Will there be any way for third parties or individuals to "mount" (make thicker and more rigid) the SK-type "cardstock" boards, do you think?
Frank
Just a matter of your imagination.
Method A, 1/8 panelling from lumber store. About the right thickness. Tiny bit heavier.
Method B, old games of zero worth that volunteer themselves as backing.
Method C, model stores have plastic sheet in many thicknesses that could work easy enough.
Method D, simply gluing 2-3 sheets of posterboard together to end up with a backing board.
it needs to be said, the underlay of mounted boards is really just a paper product easily matched.
it needs to be said, the underlay of mounted boards is really just a paper product easily matched.
Yea, fair enough, it is just a bother that is all... Last thing i want to do is replace the maps i have had for 20 years just because it is all suddenly going to change
IS it confirmed that the Finnish module (Halle whatever) will have the AH style mounted boards? I know that AOO will for it's initial release, but I hadn't heard that HP will. And AOO will only have mounted boards till the stockpile of already printed boards is used up. Then it too is the new cardstock boards. But I didn't think the boards for HP had ever been printed.
There is nothing wrong with new boards being made up as long as there is some need for them. I think making new ones just to have new boards (with just minor terrains variations being all they bring) is just cluttering the game system. Now Historical Mapboards I would love to see more of.
Reepicheep
20 Jun 05, 03:01
Yes, it is confirmed, Alan. HP will have mounted boards, as they have already been printed and are in storage for MMP.
Does anyone knows what will come after HP that has geo boards in it? An AP perhaps? Have any of those new (post 52) maps already been designed?
By the way, since all new boards will be cardstock I personally have no problem if 50 more boards are released. But imagine what would it be like to move 100+ mounted boards.
José (not a weight-lifter)
da priest
20 Jun 05, 11:34
Yes, it is confirmed, Alan. HP will have mounted boards, as they have already been printed and are in storage for MMP.
think the key word is "board". only one board in Hawka Luggie.:smoke:
There's always room for more boards.
I've recently completed 2 'multi-geomorphic' Russian theme boards. All of them are relatively open, but with scattered terrain. Like boards 4 or 44 but more rural feeling.
'Multi geomorphic' is a cool thing that has been explained here but not shown so far. Essentially, it is a geoboard which, when folded at hexrow Q, can butt up against another such multi geomorphic board at hexrow Q - to form an entirely new full geomorphic board. They work together because the road networks and other terrain match each other at hexrow Q. Make sense?
Hence, with 2 such boards - 6 potential new boards are provided. :cheeky:
The other category of discussion - important from my standpoint at least - is whether a geoboard is hand-painted or computer generated. :blab: You know my opinion on that.
Don :bandit:
Jose:
In answer to your question regarding boards, I have seen notes regarding 8 Geoboards in progress by Don Petros.
3 Normandy type for AP#3, 3 Russia type for AP#4 and 2 other Russian type for later use. (See Dons note above.)
Jim McLeod
20 Jun 05, 18:46
Forumites,
ASL mapboards are like sex ... one can never have too much of either. :cheeky:
Having said that ... upon viewing ASLers, it may be safe to assume that the majority of said ASLers engage in the latter at a rate similar to the release of the former.
... just an observation. :)
=Jim=
Jose:
In answer to your question regarding boards, I have seen notes regarding 8 Geoboards in progress by Don Petros.
3 Normandy type for AP#3, 3 Russia type for AP#4 and 2 other Russian type for later use. (See Dons note above.)
That's good of course, but I think we need a few Italy /Sicily/ Tunisia river or stream crossing boards also.
And an ETO flooded/swamp board.
Or are there some boards now that do these jobs?
One board with a railroad running down the middle in the long direction would be good to.
Frank
Patrick Brazil
20 Jun 05, 21:27
I am very new to ASL and I find the mounted boards to be far superior to the starter kit type. Needless to say I'm trying to gather as many mounted boards as possible.
By the way, I'm looking for #'s 6, 29, 36 and 47 at the moment. :)
Fred Ingram
20 Jun 05, 23:12
I am very new to ASL and I find the mounted boards to be far superior to the starter kit type. Needless to say I'm trying to gather as many mounted boards as possible.
By the way, I'm looking for #'s 6, 29, 36 and 47 at the moment. :)
As soon as all the boards are available in starter kit format, all my mounted boards will be on EBAY
Mike te Younger
21 Jun 05, 01:29
And an ETO flooded/swamp board.
Or are there some boards now that do these jobs?
Frank
Yes. Boards 7 and 8 spring to mind right away.
Also, Boards 10, 11, 16, 33, 35, 38, 41, 43, and 46 terrain type x can be SSR'd into swamp or marsh
I am very new to ASL and I find the mounted boards to be far superior to the starter kit type. Needless to say I'm trying to gather as many mounted boards as possible.
By the way, I'm looking for #'s 6, 29, 36 and 47 at the moment. :)
Patrick, if you haven't found out already, ebay is an excellent source for mounted boards. Typically, the prices for them are actually pretty reasonable (with the exception of the rare AP1 boards 42/43, of course!). Most of the ones you listed come up occasionally. Also, check out www.finegames.com as they have parts available and you may find them there. Good luck!
jasperdog3329
21 Jun 05, 11:09
I like the idea of using the desert boards as Russian steppe terrain. Throw an overlay or two with a farmhouse and barn, picture the buff colour being long dry grass and Bob's your uncle. Specific Russian steppe boards that somehow give an unique East Front feel would be fine too.
I think that semi-geomorphic boards should be considered. These boards would have only one side that butts up properly to existing boards but would fit together in groups of 2 to 4 to form larger terrain features such as a big hill (or reverse them to show a deep valley).
Some new small village boards would be nice. Some of the old standbys are getting pretty stale. New large overlays to revise the village configuration on say board 3 could also work.
Having talked with a few people at MMP, I can say don't look for the old maps reprinted anytime soon as that have products on the line to take up the rest of the year, and when they get around too doing the maps it will be in the new format like the starter kit maps and also they will not redo all the maps at one time.
Also don't look for many new maps, just the ones made for the new starter kits and maybe a couple in one of the redo issues of older modules.
Charlie like a number of the older hands at squad leader have maps that we all made and AH and MMP has both showed like interest in doing them, I called mmp the frist month they took over asl to see then if they wanted new maps and got little action.
I hope this changes soon, as mmp as done a wonderful job in the last year.
Swiftandsure
23 Jun 05, 13:03
I'd like an "Escarpment" type board (or overlay) adapted to ETO, because hills and mountains can be much more broad than the "less than one mile" ASL hills...
Even a slight rise, say from 0 to 2 level, could be interesting...
About an overlay for board 3, I have been hoping such adaptations for a long time.
A devastated city could also be interesting...
A devastated city would be GREAT
A devastated city would be GREAT
Yes, definitely. There should be at least two versions of geomorphic devastated city boards, reflecting the different types of cities, eastern and western ETO. And this could even be done in a paper double or triple map format, compatible with other geomorphic boards.
Mostly it was cities that were devastated by aerial bombing or artillery, but also there was Carpet bombing in Normandy, much of Monte Cassino was destoyed, and, I am guessing, numerous small cities and villages in Russia - certainly in and near Leningrad, near Singapore in 42, and in industrial Germany in 1945.
Frank
Generally I am not in favor of overlays, but in this case they might work best.
I just might be ahead of the power curve here:):):)
Chas
If new boards are needed then go for it. Just keep the ones that are already made avaliable to new players. Man having to pay $400 plus for 42 and 43 on Ebay for AP1 makes it hard to get those ones.
No I did not get this item, to rich for my blood.
If new boards are needed then go for it. Just keep the ones that are already made avaliable to new players. Man having to pay $400 plus for 42 and 43 on Ebay for AP1 makes it hard to get those ones.
No I did not get this item, to rich for my blood.
It has to cost less than $400 to produce 2 mounted mapboards!!!!!!!!!
At some price point, supply should meet demand, don't you think?
Frank
I have told this to mmp that for years. I don't think you will see the reprints anytime soon, more like 2-5 years.
And here is what is bad about the way they are going to do the reprints, you will end up with a map collection on not mounted, mounted on hard board, and the new cardboard types or a mix of the 3 kinds.
I asked mmp the question, why would a person who has 100+ sl maps want to change over to the new format?
If they do new maps I would like to see them, based on a 1x3 area. That would give a large area to place any major type terrian and allow for river bends etc.
Also mmp needs to do clear overlays of shell holes, wire, rubble etc, to cut down on stacking in a hex.
That is what my economics professor in college told us. Granted you sell lots at first to make up for the back log. Then it levels out. The new people that want to purchase the system will then keep you going. At least they will not see the prices to get the parts and pieces and say "not for me". Then your avaliable customers does not expand and you lose money. There is no reason for a person who already has a board to purchase another, but a new person has lots of incentive to get the boards.
I guess that is why I am still looking for 42 and 43. LOL. The supply does not meet my demand. IE I can't afford $400 for 2 boards.
That is what my economics professor in college told us. Granted you sell lots at first to make up for the back log. Then it levels out. The new people that want to purchase the system will then keep you going. At least they will not see the prices to get the parts and pieces and say "not for me". Then your avaliable customers does not expand and you lose money. There is no reason for a person who already has a board to purchase another, but a new person has lots of incentive to get the boards.
I guess that is why I am still looking for 42 and 43. LOL. The supply does not meet my demand. IE I can't afford $400 for 2 boards.
Well, I guess this begs the question. How much are you or others willing to play for quality mounted mapboards? New or used (not necessarily from MMP)?
That might be the next poll (?)
I know that many people have said that MMP is not making any more mounted mapboards. I am not sure MMP themselves have or need to say this categorically. Heat of Battle offer mounted mapboards.
Historically, Avalon Hill has made mounted mapboards, and a lower rate of game production than SPI, which did not offer mounted mapboards. SPI went out of business long before Avalon Hill. I am not sure if mapboard quality was a major factor in this, but it might have been. I only know that I purchased a lot more AH games than SPI games, on the basis of the quality and durability of game components and game design and playtesting.
Frank
da priest
25 Jun 05, 19:00
...I am not sure MMP themselves have or need to say this categorically. ..
Sigh....the reason a lot of folks have said "no more"...is because..drum roll..MMP has said it..over and over and over.....:dead:
What did AH in had to do more with not listening to the people that were buying thier products. How many times did one of the old sl-asl people tell AH to do more map boards, more campaign games, black and white SS counters, more countries (ie not just axis and allied minors).
ASL and SL could have kept AH in the black for a long time, but AH went out of its way to do other games. BTW the Up Front game was one of the costliest games to do.
Right now not only does mmp need to do reprints of many of the asl items, but also needs to do a module of Hungary, Romania etc. Needless to say more maps, bigger maps, many more campaign games etc.
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