View Full Version : Blue - Tourney Rd 1 - Against Rob C.
Ok, here's the beginning of my aar. I'm going to try to give you an idea of what I was thinking...so don't laugh too hard. I'm still learning this operational stuff.
I tend to be fairly aggressive and try to find the path my opponent will least expect. Sometimes this works...sometimes it doesn't.
If you take a look at my plan map below (apparently, the zipped MSPaint file is to big, so I'll post in the DA Maps section), you'll get an idea of what I plan on doing and what I expect Rob to do.
I'm guessing that Rob will be starting in northeast corner of the map and that he'll move quickly to the south to gain control of the main objectives in the south. With this in mind, I'm going to try a wheel type attack where I'll try to hold him just north of the objectives with one unit and bring my other two manuever units around from the north to cut him off from his LOC and setup some attacks from the flanks.
The early turns will see limited use of my aviation assets as I want to increase there logistics and see what's out there first.
A couple of issues:
1. The map is big! And I'm not very good at keeping my units organized and moving efficiently...particularly my ADA units which I never have positioned correctly.
2. I need to blow the bridges in the south so he can't turn my sourthern flank. Though I think I can still get back and cut him off, it would be an unpleasant task and really throw me off.
3. I'm hoping to isolate his northern screening unit and destroy it early. We'll have to see how this works out and what his response is when he realizes how far north I am.
4. Hopefully I don't run out of turns. The map is big with a lot of space to cover, I'm hoping my move north doesn't keep me from wheeling around south and taking the objectives.
5. At some point, I'm going to need to move my aviation units I believe so that I can maximize my attacks. We'll have to see how that plays out, then find a good location.
Well, let's see how this thing goes! I've attached the big picture map with a rough outline of my plan.
Enjoy,
Brian
Here's a link to my plan map -- http://www.warfarehq.com/archives/showthread.php?p=1356#post1356
Enjoy,
Brian
Well, turn 1 has been finished and it looks like Rob has not rushed south as fast as I'd like. :( He has at least one major Inf unit heading along the northern route (vic Obj. Vilma) that will run into my guys in 2 turns I'd guess if he continues west.
He's also held a major, major armor unit just southeast of the north bridge...looks like he may be seeing which path opens up so he can exploit with the armor.
He does appear to be moving some units south as I've picked up a Cav unit just west of Obj. Angie.
The current disposition of units may give me a slight advantage as I have more bridges available to cross west to east. I'm still hoping to isolate his Inf unit in the north and attack with 3BCT from the west and 2BCT from the south.
The family just got home so I'll have to finish later....
Turn 1 continued...I know you couldn't sleep last night waiting for this. :) FYI, I'll post some screenshots soon.
With 2BCT and 3 BCT targeting the unit in the north, I plan on using 1BCT to screen my southern flank. Unfortunately, 1 BCT is 2 turns away from getting in position, so I've sent 2BCT's Cav unit south to screen for now.
To compensate for the missing recon assets, I'm going to have one of my AVN Cav units scout the area between 2BCT and REDFOR.
I'm still rushing my Engineer unit south with plans to blow some bridges and have 1BCT's Cav unit heading down that way as well to provide a tripwire in case he makes it around my southern flank.
Issues I'm still trying to figure out...
1. How to maximize my helicopters. I have plenty of AVN support, but I really have no clue as to the best way to employ it. Right now, I'm using 2 units as scouts and I'm hoping that once contact in the north is made, I can bring my Attack AVN units into the mix. Past experience doing this has not been too kind to my pilots unfortunately, so we'll have to see if I can do any better here.
2. How to best use my CAS missions. I only get 10 missions per 24 hours, so I have to be careful what I use them for. I'm always torn between using them to take out support units and HQ's or hitting Manuever units. I have the same question this time around. I guess if I ever figure out what the high value targets are, this will be easier to answer. :)
3. I can see that keeping all my units moving along is going to be a problem. First, because I suck at it and second because of all the bridges that serve as choke points.
Well, that's it for now. I just keep thinking to myself how those of you reading my AAR and then Rob's AAR could be cringing right now and saying..."this is going to get ugly very soon for Scully." :D
Take care,
Brian
Ok...we're through turn 2. Basically there are two key areas at this point -- North Center just west of Obj Vilma and the Center just north of Obj Betty. I've posted 2 screenshots here:
http://www.warfarehq.com/archives/showthread.php?t=679
one of each section.
North Situation:
I have 2BCT and 3BCT moving to attack RedFor's 2BDE on the southern flank. I'm using 1-17ACR as a screen west of 2BDE and am trying to loop 2-17ACR north around 2BDE to provide a screen against Redfor reinforcements from the east.
I have 2 Atk Aviation units set to attack -- one from the north and one from the south.
B/3-11 MLRS is set to counter-battery and a CFFZ marker has been set where I think the action will be.
I've also move one of my TAI to the killzone (hopefully). While this won't help on this turn, it will been a tremendous benefit next turn when I'll really pound him.
My intel assets have only picked up a couple of Cav units and an ADA unit between his 2BDE and Obj Vilma. He does have his 1BDE sitting east of the river in an apparent reserve role.
This whole situation looks way too good to be true, so we'll have to see what happens.
Center Situation:
F/1-18 Cav and E/1-18 Cav are moving into position to screen this flank. I don't want anybody sneaking through before 1BCT gets here to protect 2 and 3BCT.
Redfor has A/1-66 CAV in the vicinity, so I'm guessing his 3BDE is in the area.
Rest of Map:
I'm still racing D/1-18 Cav South to screen my flanks in the area of Obj Lisa. My engineer unit is also still moving that way to take out some bridges.
As I expected, the movement of my support units has been anything but smooth to this point. HQ and Supply units are still reasonably close so no major issues.
Still trying to determine best use of airstrikes. If I really get his 2BDE in a bind this next turn, I may use a couple to do some damage with the TAI.
I may also get more aggressive (I've barely used them so far) with my AVN units next turn if there's a good opportunity to eliminate his 2BDE. We'll have to see.
That's it for now.
Take care,
Brian
Ivan Rapkinov
21 Apr 05, 23:22
blow the bridges! :D
Secret Agent
21 Apr 05, 23:24
blow the bridges! :D
^Spoken from experience. :halo:
Ivan Rapkinov
21 Apr 05, 23:26
well, John contributed - but REDFOR's avenue of advance is restricted if you can eliminate two or three key bridges :)
I'm posting my own AAR thus far in a sec :)
I'm going to blow the bridges south of the city to prevent him from getting around my southern flank, but other than that I'm keeping them up for now.
If I can take out his 2bde in the next couple of turns, he's going to be in some trouble. If I do take it out, I'm hoping my original plan of looping around north and cutting him off from his LOC will actually work.
Who the heck knows though...we've only gone through 2 turns. :)
Brian
At first glance the terrain doesn't look that important in this scenario, but it doesn't take long to see how critical it really is. Those rivers are a major obstacle to movement and he who controls the bridges controls the flow of battle. Looks very nasty so far.
John Osborne
22 Apr 05, 13:40
At first glance the terrain doesn't look that important in this scenario, but it doesn't take long to see how critical it really is. Those rivers are a major obstacle to movement and he who controls the bridges controls the flow of battle. Looks very nasty so far.
Yes, But who destorys the bridges :devil: also controls the flow of the battle :devil:
Never Surrender, Never Give Up
John
At first glance the terrain doesn't look that important in this scenario, but it doesn't take long to see how critical it really is. Those rivers are a major obstacle to movement and he who controls the bridges controls the flow of battle. Looks very nasty so far.
Very true Don. The terrain creates a lot of options to think about. Particularly with respect to the bridges. In the early stages, I think Blue (if you didn't allow moving during setup) has a bit of an advantage with the 3 bridges available to cross. If things work out the way I'm hoping they will, this will have turned out to be a huge advantage for me.
As far as blowing bridges goes, I like to be flexible and I feel that every bridge that is destroyed, limits my options. So I'm planning on blowing a couple, but will keep the rest up to give me several different routes. Of course, Rob could have a different thought and I won't be able to do much about it. :D
I also don't want to waste fire missions on the bridges when there are juicy targets waiting to get pounded.
Brian
I'm back...sorry for being away so long and I don't have too much time, but I wanted to give a brief update from my side.
The last few turns have been both eventful and uneventful at the same time. We hit a standstill up north with both of us having fairly powerful forces facing each other. Rob has control of the two objectives in the south and is currently leading in victory points, but if I can hang on to what I have and take him out of the objectives in the south, I may be able to pull this thing out.
I have had several brain farts over the past few turns that I will detail in the future, but the big one I just let loose was shifting my 3BCT too far south to serve as a blocking unit a letting his 2BDE slip around to the north. I had originally planned on having 3BCT head south to attack the sourthern objectives, but changed my mind and decided to have them screen up north. Unfortunately, I forgot to change the path and now I'll have to fight north to save some units and one of the objectives I currently hold. The good news is that I didn't get too far so I'm in a decent attack position.
I'm going to leave 3BCT to deal with his 2BDE and move 2BCT south to start assaulting the objectives down there. I've been able to put 1BCT and several other units between his supply line and the units in the southern objectives. He's starting to move his forces down, but hopefully I can hold them off and take the Southern objectives before it's too late.
Rob definitely has the advantage right now, but if I can hold him in the north and buy some time in the south for my attacks to get going, I might be able to pull this out. Of course, I have to minimize my brain farts too! :)
When I get some time, I'll post some maps and more of my enlightening commentary. :laugh:
Take care,
Brian
I've just posted the map of the main battle area after turn 10.
http://www.warfarehq.com/archives/showthread.php?p=1416&posted=1#post1416
This one is going to come down to the wire. I have his infantry units that are sitting on the city objectives in some trouble (Obj Lisa in particular), but I have to try to finish them off quickly as he is racing down some reinforcements from the North East and I'm not sure how long my screening force can hold on. In addition, I'm going to start having logistics troubles in a turn or two, but if I can eliminate his units I'll be able to open up another line for logistics. If I don't eliminate his units and can't open the logistics line up, I'm going to be in some deep sh*t.
This scenario has really turned into quite a free for all with both of us constantly shifting forces each turn.
I've sent a couple of my cav units to attack objectives he's holding with MP units (Obj Paula and Obj Wilma). These objectives are not critical to my victory, but I want him worried about them and hopefully diverting resources to keep me from taking the objectives.
I'm a bit more optimistic, but still think Rob has the edge. This has been a great scenario.
Take care,
Brian
We have a bit of a stalemate near Objective Linda as his 2BDE and my 3BCT are basically right on top of each other just off the objective. I'm hoping my cav unit attacking Obj Wilma forces him to worry about his supply line and causes him to pull back. Not sure he can do that with the limited time left, but one can hope.
Well, this one is coming down to the wire. Turn 11 did not work out as well as I'd have liked as my screening force was hammered. Once the screen completely falls apart it's only a matter of time before he can do real damage to 1BCT.
Depending on how he attacks I may shift things a bit and move 2BCT east across the bridge and into his rear. This may be the only way to save 1BCT when the screen collapses.
The northern battle is pretty much a stalemate with 3BCT and his 2BDE. I do have my Cav unit attacking his ADA unit in Objective Wilma. I could use the extra points this objective will give me. I also still have a shot at taking Obj Paula with my Cav unit in the south, though this will be a little tougher.
Well, that's all for now.
Brian
Turn 12 went worse than turn 11.
My screening force folded up and went home much to the unhappiness of 1BCT whose playing the meat in a redfor sandwich right now. :(
I think winning may be out of the question, but we're going to see if I can grab another objective or two and at least keep it close.
Brian
Well, I just sent turn 15 off to Rob. I don't think I can pull it out without a major miracle. Once the screen broke down, I was in trouble and have been scrambling ever since.
I think the last few turns have shown the real difference between a game like DA and real-life. In real life, I would've reconsolidated and reorganized before pushing forward again. I was in a pretty good position, but was running out of turns, so I was much more aggressive than a real commander would've been. If I had made the correct real-life decision of reorganizing, there was no chance of me winning. So I made the game decision and took a couple of huge risks. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like they'll pay off, but hopefully I made Rob sweat at least a little bit. :)
Basically, at this point I have several units, including 2BCT and a Cav unit assaulting Obj Betty as this is my last real hope for picking up any more objectives. I also have all my available AVN units attacking this objective. He's definitely in trouble here, but I don't think I can push him out in the last turn. We'll have to see.
I've moved 1BCT out of the redfor sandwich and am going to make a run at OBJ Paula with it. Once that screen broke down, I was in real bad shape, so the fact 1BCT is even around still is a victory in some ways. Not sure I can make it to Obj Paula in time, but we'll see.
Brian
Well, Rob did a great job and won a minor victory. He had a strong response for all the different moves I tried and just seemed to be a step ahead of me. Great scenario though!
A few final thoughts:
-Attk Avn and Arty are almost useless against units in urban terrain.
-I still have to figure out the best targets for Attk Avn, Arty, and Airstrikes. My guess is it depends on the scenario, but I'm still struggling with hitting manuever units or support units.
-I have to be a bit more careful about what unit I send out as a screen. Those poor guys got eaten for breakfast!
-I actually maneuvered myself around better than anticipated. Nobody really ran too low with logistics and my ADA seemed to do a decent job.
-Not sure my NAI's were placed properly and certainly didn't assist with my Attk Avn.
We'll just have to see how things go next time.
Take care,
Brian
A few final thoughts:
-Attk Avn and Arty are almost useless against units in urban terrain.
-I still have to figure out the best targets for Attk Avn, Arty, and Airstrikes. My guess is it depends on the scenario, but I'm still struggling with hitting manuever units or support units.
-I have to be a bit more careful about what unit I send out as a screen. Those poor guys got eaten for breakfast!
-I actually maneuvered myself around better than anticipated. Nobody really ran too low with logistics and my ADA seemed to do a decent job.
-Not sure my NAI's were placed properly and certainly didn't assist with my Attk Avn.The relationship between NAIs and attack helicopters is somewhat nebulous and there appears to be more to it than what is in the player's guide. In short, aviation doesn't work well in the recon role and they get savaged by just about any serious opposition they run into. Also, sometimes they decide to attack and other times they simply go on a coffee break.
As far as which units to attack, I have mixed feelings on that. Ostensibly, command units and combat service support should be a priority any time it is practical to inflict damage on them. Kill the head and the body will die. That being said, some DA scnenarios are so short that killing off a supply unit or a HQ unit doesn't have much effect as there isn't sufficient time for the logistics to really have a major impact. On the other hand, I have seen ground maneuver brigades at 90%+ strength with excellent morale break and retreat away from an attack by an enemy battalion. At times these same units refuse to regain morale, even when well supplied and near their parent HQ. Most DA scenarios are short enough that if you break an enemy formation, chances are it will not be able to recover prior to the end of the fight. Or if it does it will be too far away from the battle to make much of an impact.
The relationship between NAIs and attack helicopters is somewhat nebulous and there appears to be more to it than what is in the player's guide. In short, aviation doesn't work well in the recon role and they get savaged by just about any serious opposition they run into. Also, sometimes they decide to attack and other times they simply go on a coffee break.
I've noticed the same thing. One additional thing I noticed is that once they fire off all their ammo, they take a direct path back to their landing zone, even if they fly directly over an enemy unit. At which point they get shot up pretty good. I had helo's not attack units even when using an NAI to direct them. Very odd.
As far as which units to attack, I have mixed feelings on that. Ostensibly, command units and combat service support should be a priority any time it is practical to inflict damage on them. Kill the head and the body will die. That being said, some DA scnenarios are so short that killing off a supply unit or a HQ unit doesn't have much effect as there isn't sufficient time for the logistics to really have a major impact. On the other hand, I have seen ground maneuver brigades at 90%+ strength with excellent morale turn and become broken from an attack from an enemy battalion. At times these same units refuse to regain morale, even when well supplied and near their parent HQ. Most DA scenarios are short enough that if you break and enemy formation, chances are it will not be able to recover prior to the end of the fight. Or if it does it will be too far away from the battle to make much of an impact.
I agree with all this. I had one of my BCT's knocked down to broken very early in the scenario and it never recovered, despite almost no contact until the last few turns.
I've always been one to attack the support services, but I'm not sure I've ever really got the payoff I've wanted within the scenario. I chose to attack the manuever units in this scenario, because I didn't think there was anyway to eliminate the support units in a meaningful way. Needless to say, attacking units in urban terrain is just about useless even if you have a TAI there.
Great scenario Don. I'm looking forward to round 2.
Brian
I've always been one to attack the support services, but I'm not sure I've ever really got the payoff I've wanted within the scenario. I chose to attack the manuever units in this scenario, because I didn't think there was anyway to eliminate the support units in a meaningful way. Here is where DA is very strange beast indeed. DA is most certainly not a tactical level wargame, it is division level (or higher), with the primary unit being the battalion or brigade. There is no other wargame anywhere that I am aware of the simulates combat at this level, yet does it within scenarios that only depict 12-48 hr battles. Every other wargame at this scale would sport scenarios ranging from 5 days to several months.
What am I driving at?
Unlike a tactical level wargame, destroying combat support and combat service support units should have a dramatic effect in an operational level game. In a tactical wargame it is usually best to destroy the most potent units and weapons systems as the scenarios aren't generally long enough for the loss of support units to really impact either side. But DA, being a operational level game with really short battles, falls into the cracks in this regard. The battles are far too short for either side to really be impacted by the loss of important logistics units and HQ. Oh there is some impact, of course, but it isn't nearly as serious as it would be if the scenarios covered a week or two. In these longer battles the loss of key logistics units would cripple the division's ability to move efficiently, and the loss of HQ units would be troublesome for a variety of reasons as well.
In short, I agree that hitting support units is always a primary goal -- at least it should be! -- in any operational level wargame. It's just that DA's weird time/unit scale tends to skew the results and make hitting maneuver units more attractive.
Well Don, it sounds like you just made a great case for creating a long scenario! :laugh: I wonder what a 4 or 5 day DA scenario would be like. Is it even possible or is that too long?
One of these days I'll have to figure out how to create scenarios for DA and give it a try.
Take care,
Brian
Well Don, it sounds like you just made a great case for creating a long scenario! :laugh: I wonder what a 4 or 5 day DA scenario would be like. Is it even possible or is that too long?
You can indeed create scenarios that are slightly longer -- I think 100 turns is the limit -- but at 2 hours/turn, who is going to want to play it? Such a scenario would be better if 4 or 6 hour turns were an option. That would move the system closer to the unit scale/time scale that other wargames use. On the flip side, DA plays different than most other operational level wargames. Although the units are indeed battalions and brigades, many of the tasks that the player performs for each unit are closer to what one would expect to see in a tactical level wargame -- in other words there is a lot of micromanagement. I think this is part of what makes DA unique and why people play it. From a purely operational perspective, DA is completely outclassed by a game like TOAW. TOAW does much more than DA can ever hope to do and offers a ton more options. But no other operational wargame, including TOAW, allows the player to choose the role for artillery, spot individual targets, assign warpoints, etc, etc. DA is an operational wargame that plays like a tactical wargame in many ways, and this either appeals to gamers or turns them off completely.
Ivan Rapkinov
19 Jun 05, 21:58
A few final thoughts:
-Attk Avn and Arty are almost useless against units in urban terrain.
I'll disagree with this - my atk aviation was a big killer for me :) - whilst in an active TAI, it managed to reduce his 3 Bde by 14% - which was a huge force multiplier at that point of the battle.
that was in Downtown Myskina. Artillery was also a big killer - not so much for how much damage it did per mission, but the massed effects of lotsa guns/rockets attritting away a Bde.
-Not sure my NAI's were placed properly and certainly didn't assist with my Attk Avn.
not to sound rude Brian :) - but were your TAIs/NAIs active when you sent the helos through? Rememberig it takes a turn or two for them to become so?
as for targets, my Cav helos annihilated one of John Bde HQs in a TAI - 96% damage. And that was just a Cav sqn, the Atk sqns savaged the enemy manuveur units. Also, I'd plot a path back to base, a la the UAVs.
Rob Carpenter
20 Jun 05, 01:59
Well I found that this scenario was just long enough that some of my units needed supply. But in general I agree, one way to do it is start the units off with less than 100% log.
I also thought there were too many log units in the scenario. I didn't care when I lost one. The next version with limited log convoy's will also be interesting...
Ahelos were a pain until I set them to "none" as the first target choice, then they attacked.
I tried to use terrain well in this game, and it certainly worked. In the north I halted at the restricted terrain, and when Brian attacked he got a bloody nose.
Doing frontal attacks in Urban terrain didn't work well for him, but when he got in a flank attack he really did some hurt, he almost won then. Plus I had beefed that Bn up to Bn++ :)
This was a good game to get back into a DA mindset, it reminded me why I generally don't play DA for fun, a couple of quirkey things and a lot of hard works that too much like real work... but then thats why I really love the game!
Cheers
Rob
I'll disagree with this - my atk aviation was a big killer for me :) - whilst in an active TAI, it managed to reduce his 3 Bde by 14% - which was a huge force multiplier at that point of the battle.
that was in Downtown Myskina. Artillery was also a big killer - not so much for how much damage it did per mission, but the massed effects of lotsa guns/rockets attritting away a Bde.
Well, I'm glad it worked for you Ivan. :laugh:
not to sound rude Brian :) - but were your TAIs/NAIs active when you sent the helos through? Rememberig it takes a turn or two for them to become so?
He got to the objective pretty early in the game and I placed my TAIs before I was anywhere near attacking him. They were definitely there long enough, but even on flank shots, I was getting less than 1% results.
as for targets, my Cav helos annihilated one of John Bde HQs in a TAI - 96% damage. And that was just a Cav sqn, the Atk sqns savaged the enemy manuveur units. Also, I'd plot a path back to base, a la the UAVs.
I may have to try something different next time around...we'll have to see how I'm feeling. :)
Well I found that this scenario was just long enough that some of my units needed supply. But in general I agree, one way to do it is start the units off with less than 100% log.
I also thought there were too many log units in the scenario. I didn't care when I lost one. The next version with limited log convoy's will also be interesting...
I agree with Rob here. I had absolutely no worries about losing log units.
I tried to use terrain well in this game, and it certainly worked. In the north I halted at the restricted terrain, and when Brian attacked he got a bloody nose.
Rob did a nice job using terrain, but I think the bloody nose I took up north had a lot to do with a poor scouting effort on my part. I was hoping to get around his lead unit to attack the flanks and ran into the follow on BDE I didn't know was there...oops! :(
Take care,
Brian
On the issue of logistics units, there are actually a lot more of them in real life! For every soldier sitting in a Bradley or an Apache, there are 10+ bringing in supplies and other support functions. Each brigade-sized command has a support unit attached in the form of an FSB (forward support battalion). Division has DISCOM and an MSB. The presence of these units allows a force to deply a lot deeper into enemy territory and more rapidly. Also, the give the force some redundancy if one log unit is damaged.
In reality, these units are not enough to supply a brigade during high intensity combat for extended periods. During both Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom the normal Army supply system was heavily augmented with civilian support organizations and specialized reserve units. There was also quite a bit of deviation from existing logistics plans during the early weeks of Iraqi Freedom. Entire supply bases were planned and set up that had not been part of the original vision. The logistics of a modern army at the corps+ level is massively complex and there are very few real experts on it because it is so rarely used.
As I said earlier, DA's scale doesn't really demonstrate how crushing the loss of a full FSB would be to a maneuver brigade. That brigade would very quickly be forced to its knees and crippled without fuel, ammo, parts, food, water, etc. But in DA the loss of an entire FSB is mostly a fleeting annoyance.
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