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View Full Version : Breaching Madness... I must be doing something wrong.



Spleen
23 May 03, 00:54
Basrah Attack.. Off to a great start.. I am using the warthog to spot and I take out both enemy artillery sights, also take out the mortar location.

Very little resistance now. INstead of dealing with the entrenched dismounts in the center of the map I skirt left and take out the armor along the left side of the map with CAS and BBDIPCM..

Looks like I have it clear all the way up to the objective.

Then I hit the obstacles. Looke like little green boxes with a circle on the inside.. I assume these are mines?

No problemo. I have no artillery and the entrenched infantry east of me is out of range. I perform Engineer Platoon Breech and create what I assume is a freeway through the obstacles. (multiple yellow stripes??? ) This breech is huge! I can go through in staggered column I think. Just to be safe I go down to Column and create a blue company path right through the breech.

Then I notice something wierd.. ABout 1/2 of my engineer platoon is across the obstacle but the other 1/2 is mired in it. I check out the paths of the mired units and the zigzag all over. No problem I think and I detach them, and create a new path for each engineer unit.. Tedius I think, but it does work.

Now here comes my 2-5 armor column. 1/2 crosses the breech withiout problem.. Im GOOD TO GO I think and move to plan some artillery fires.. Having done that, I return to check the status of my Armor column.. Ill be damned if 1/2 the company is stuck int he damn obstacles.. I have to detach 6 units (the last six in the column and plan a seperate path for each one to make it through the breech. Very Tedious again. If I check the path (red path) of each of these mired units, its zigzagging all over the place.. its like AI on Maddog 2020 or something.

Is this just the way it is, or did I go wrong somewhere? If the company cannot cross, then Ill just detach and cross breech one unit at a time.. Seems like a lot of work though..

Any help appreciated. Otherwise, having a great time playing.

Spleen
23 May 03, 01:03
Oh and really do not think that I am accidently setting paths for units..

No I do not turn off platoon and units but I am clicking on the Company flag and I get a blue line which tells me I am planning a company path.

True?

Whats odd is I set the company path. Then if I go back and path edit a unit (red path) sometimes the path is crazy.

I did an experiement. If I put my company in a column and then create a blue path across the breech and THEN right click on a unit in the company many times the red path I see DOES NOT go through the breech.. It goes through the obstacles.

Seems to me that If I plan a blue path over the breech, then all red paths should go through breech also, no?

This is the problem.. They do not.. So I end up with 1/2 my units simply breaking formation, and driving right onto a dragons tooth!

hate it when that happens.

KG_Norad
23 May 03, 09:48
There are some postings you may find useful on the Shrapnel games forum under the topic of Path Finding Problems.

To quote CPT Proctor "The best policy, in restricted terrain is to use "None" as the formation. Plot a path for the platoon and all of the units will follow, ducks in a row."

This particular piece of advice was given regarding units trying to work their way through restrictive terrain, but I think it may apply here. (Don't get much more restrictive the a Mine Field
:D) Hope this is useful!

Pat Proctor
23 May 03, 11:09
I couldn't have said it better myself ;)

The units are doing their best to do what they are told, stay in column formation. They figure you know something they don't (like there are no mines to the left or right of the breach).

Use the none formation and you should have no more problems. After you are through the obstacles, you can go back to a formation.

Spleen
23 May 03, 11:42
Sounds good Ill give it a try.

Why not make this default behavior when a platoon in wedge comes to a narrow area?

IN reality when a company wedge comes to narrow gorge it would automatically fall into file (column) while in the gorge and once it comes the end of the gorge and out into more space spread back into wedge. Right?

Instead, it seems like the AI is using alot of processing power trying to maintain wedge no matter what. Seems like it would be easy to just make the algorhythm check to see if wedge is able to maintained? If it is not, then switch to "none" formation (or file).. Check again if wedge can be performed? If yes, then spread out to wedge.

I dont know, I might be way off, my programming ends with PERL and JAVA.

Regardless.. Im addicted to this game.. thanks alot ;)

Deltapooh
23 May 03, 23:38
Some advice:

Avoid the left flank of the enemy defensive position. It's a trick. I usually employ my A-10s as scouts. The first time I saw the enemy desive position on this scenario I thought "why would the bad guys leave their left flank so weak?" So I figured it was a trap.

Instead I looked at the right. On the surface it looks formidable. However, in reality, it's quite soft. The enemy dismounts can shred you. However, with an A-10 keeping them in view, you can call in artillery. I usually assign one battery per dismount position, using DPICM. It might look like alot of work. A battalion can destroy on average two dismount positions per volley. I've destroyed as many as five. AT teams are very weak.

Once you've blown away the enemy dismounts. Moving forward is quite easy. I usually order one or two A-10s to take out the BDRMs positioned behind the mainline as well as the three T-72S. I also work the artillery on the enemy main line, as well as taking down the enemy artillery. (Follow some good advice received here and just blow up the MT-LBs located in the center of the artillery battalion.)

Push your scouts in advance of the main force to locate a possible minefield well south of the main line of defense. It's small. Keep your formation tight. I operate along a 2.5-3km wide line of advance with B/2-8 CAV in the lead. Stay narrow and as far right as possible. The minefield might push you west some, but you should have enough room to slip past the two enemy dismount positions located to more in the center.

If you haven't blown away the enemy artillery, you might need to use smoke, or blast away everyone in visual range. You should be facing maybe 1 T-72S and no BRDM-2s. That leaves the BTR-60s, which really aren't much of a threat.

While all this might sound like alot of work, it's work it. On your left flank, you must cut through a very large minefield. Once this is done, the space you have to operate in is very narrow. On the right, the minefield is small, and quickly opens a very large zone for your to move your entire task force through. This is also the safest point way to roll-up on OBJ GREMLIN. You meet light resistance. Shoot artillery deep and use your maneuver forces close. I usually have my two companies from 2-5 CAV abreast and B/2-8 CAV in reserve. It's a cake walk.

In fact, this mission can be won primarily with artillery. Just use the A-10s to pick targets. On average, if I'm careless, I'll loose one scout vehicle, while killing every enemy vehicle and team in the mission.

Pat Proctor
24 May 03, 10:54
I was actually having this conversation with someone the other day.

In reality, as a task force commander and staff, you just decide where you want the CAS and how you want it to enter and leave your zone. The rest is really out of your hands. The aircraft comes in, looks at the grid you told it, blows away anything around that grid, and leaves.

If it doesn't find anything there, it won't go "hunting" for targets. At 120 m/s and 2000 m AGL, you don't want them hunting for targets. There is a good chance they'll find YOU!

The only intelligence you might get from A-10's in a real task force or brigade is "there is a whole mess of vehicles coming down this pass" or there is a concentration of vehicles here. First, the air force doesn't know an infantry strong point from an anti-tank battery firing line from an artillery position area. Second, they do not have any kind of location finding equipment that will render grids suitable for artillery targeting.

We initially intended to make CAS a completely targeted, allied asset. You "call for fire" with the CAS and it ingresses and egresses completely out of your control. We also wanted to make this the same behavior in some scenarios for artilley. There just wasn't enough time. We will almost certainly revisit it in Air Assault Task Force.

Not trying to sharpshoot anyone. If it works, and you are having fun, do it. But the tactic of using A-10's as scouts for artillery targetting and detailed intelligence will not work in real life.

Spleen
24 May 03, 13:08
I was thinking this same thing CPT. I actually had the A-10's flying around the battlefield like UAV.

I went left and it worked well.

Started out by finding the two artillery forces with the A-10. Took out all the ARCV's in both forces and basically eliminated the artillery threat. Once this was done, I flew the A-10 left then arched around and the squadron took out 14-20 vehicles.

As my ATF moved north and encountered the heaps of entrenched infantry I just veered left and breached the minefield. With the enemy artillery out, there was no threat. I pushed up the narrow lane and then took out the remaining enemy APC's from their right flank using fire and manuever. Objective was taken and vehicle quota eliminated wihtout having to deal with the quagmire of the enemy infantry.

In reality they would have been trimmed with a DaisyCutter anyway :)

CPT, I agree with you. If you get time, My wish list includes more realistic CAP requests.. dare I say it, kinda like SPMBT.

overall, once I got the nack of breaching with formations "none" everything went very smooth.

Deltapooh
24 May 03, 21:57
Yeah, using your CAS as scouts is quite unrealistic. I fly alot of Janes F/A-18. (Nice accurate & simulator.) It seems almost impossible to find enemy vehicles, unless they are moving, not using visual limitiation techniques, fining, etc. Most missions rely strongly on information from the ground or intelligence. Besides that, the A-10 can loiter only so long, before requiring refueling.

However, I give it little moral thought since my ulimate goal is to win. Cheating is permitted in war. :D

I still enjoy selecting what munitions should be used for a fire mission. It's not unrealistic if you are the commander of an Artillery battalion, which you are. Beyond selecting munitions, you are also responsible for the positioning and survival of the artillery units. Thus, it seems fair, that you should be able to decide what may or may not be used.

Once the database editor is released, we should probably make UAVs, as well as a bunch other vehicles.

Pat Proctor
24 May 03, 22:17
Not to mess with anyone's rationalizations, but... ;)

UAV's are very uncommon at the task force level. Hell. With the exception of the Stryker BCT, for which they are organic, they are uncommon at the BCT level, as well.

The division might, conceivably weight the main effort by giving them priority of intel and selection of ROZ's (I can't remember what it stands for, but it is where the UAV flies), but they will still maintain all of the equipment at the division-level. It is just too valuable an asset to risk by pushing forward.

Now, of course single BCT operations like Bosnia and Afghanistan are obviously exceptions, but, as they say, the exceptions prove the rule.