View Full Version : Allied Pre-War Builds
Would it be possible (from an event standpoint) to give the Allies an option for pre-war builds if the Axis choose the option on turn 1. In turn, if the Allies choose it the US Entry goes down by 20 points (or some other amount). They would get more units but, reduse teh eventual US Entry.
Yes I know the French and British were still horrified over the losses in WWI but, the German Pre-War builds in this game is completely hypothetical so why not an Allied one. Could have happened if Germany showed even more aggressiveness during the 30s as far as rebuilding their military. "Hawks" like Churchill could have been given more political clout in 36, 37 38.
What is interesting about this is that like the new variable US Entry it creates more uncertainty in the game especially from a strategic point. This is exactly what the Axis leadership was balancing when Hitler came to power. They were balancing their aggressiveness in a way that maximized the process of rearmament while keeping the Allies placated enough so war broke out when they were ready. Never knowing the real affect of each move they made on the Allies or how they would react.
I think this would be very interesting. Hopefully, it will not take up 20+ events. Thoughts gang?.........
Ben Turner
07 Feb 03, 14:24
Originally posted by otto
I think this would be very interesting. Hopefully, it will not take up 20+ events. Thoughts gang?.........
Should take 3 events.
This is certainly interesting. One could have France building a more respectable air force and Britain beginning selective conscription from March 1939. This would blur the line between aggressor and defender of course and deter the Americans from entering the war for some time.
While on the subject, the Italians could be given one or two units to go with the existing German pre-war builds. That would mean no extra events. Some modern tanks (which the Italians lacked almost entirely in 1940) would not go amiss.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ben Turner
[B]
This would blur the line between aggressor and defender of course and deter the Americans from entering the war for some time.
Agreed that is why I suggest that if the Allies take it this would also reduce the US Entry points. Is that contemplated in the 3 events you mention?
Entry points can't go lower than zero though.
Originally posted by Chuck
Entry points can't go lower than zero though.
If the event granting the Allies pre-war builds is contingent upon one being previously chosen for the Axis, then the US Entry should already be incremented positively. Then the matching Allied builds would simple decrement it accordingly.
Ben Turner
07 Feb 03, 15:26
Originally posted by otto
Agreed that is why I suggest that if the Allies take it this would also reduce the US Entry points. Is that contemplated in the 3 events you mention?
Probably four, now I think of it:
1: Event activated [Axis pre-war builds option taken]
Activate Event 2
2: Turn 999
Theatre Option 2 "Allied pre-war builds?"
Activate Event 3
3: Turn 999
news only (the unit arrivals are triggered off this event)
4: Event activated [the start of the war]
Theatre Option 2 "Allied pre-war builds?"
Activate Event 500 (to cancel the Theatre Option)
The Allies already have a pre-war build: extended Maginot Line. This was the type of thinking the Allies were doing at the time. If the Axis choose the pre-war build option than the Allies should have an option to build more forts. Giving them extra tanks and planes to match the Axis defeats the purpose of the scenario.
Originally posted by Chuck
The Allies already have a pre-war build: extended Maginot Line. This was the type of thinking the Allies were doing at the time. If the Axis choose the pre-war build option than the Allies should have an option to build more forts. Giving them extra tanks and planes to match the Axis defeats the purpose of the scenario.
How does giving the Allies a hypothetical pre-war build (tanks & planes) defeat the purpose of this scenario when the Axis already have this type of option? Are you talking about game balance?
Originally posted by otto
How does giving the Allies a hypothetical pre-war build (tanks & planes) defeat the purpose of this scenario when the Axis already have this type of option? Are you talking about game balance?
I think what Chuck meant was that the allies were thinking defensively in pre-WW2 so instead of giveng them tanks and planes as pre-War buildups they should get weapons that suit their defensive thinking. even more forts (maybe at the dutch&belgium/german border ?) more defensive weapons like artillery, maybe additional conscrips (another 4000 rifles ?)
The Maginot Line can be considered the Allied pre-war build. Some think this option should only be used for Eastern Crusade variants. I disagree. Having forts all the way out to the English Channel should slow down the initial Axis offensive and help keep the French in the game for a longer period of time.
If any offensive units should be added due to Axis pre-war builds, they should be American. If the Axis take out the Soviet Union with the help of pre-war builds, this should not be considered the end of the game. Several additional late-war corps could be added to the Allies to make it possible for them to mount a decent 1944-1946 offensive coming from just the western front. Basically I would call this the late-war builds option to counter the Axis pre-war builds.
:banana:
Dan Neely
07 Feb 03, 20:07
To make the forts viable for a non EC, you'd need to put an EEV penalty on them. It'd need to be either delayed or have all the EEV values scaled to use a nonzero start otherwise 0 - 30 would still equal 0, giving the allies a freebie.
Ben Turner
08 Feb 03, 05:37
Originally posted by Chuck
Basically I would call this the late-war builds option to counter the Axis pre-war builds.
Hm. I would think this could be triggered off a VERY high US EEV variable- say 150. An ultra pissed-off US goes into industrial overdrive and focusses more on Europe than historically. This would be really bad news for the Germans- remember Roosevelt said during the Battle of the Bulge that if the offensive succeeded he would supply another 200 divisions. He could have done.
Mark Stevens
08 Feb 03, 08:51
I like Chuck's interpretation that giving the Allies the Extend Maginot Line Option represents their equivalent of the Axis Pre-war builds, but they would need to have been aware of the coming danger by the mid-1930s at least to have devoted the resources into such a major construction project.
Giving them anything else - tanks, infantry, planes, more ships, etc., even for a much lower USEV - will simply mean the Germans taking more losses if they attack the French, so the net effect will probably be the same. It also wouldn't fit in with Allied strategic thinking in the inter-war years. Only a very few voices in the UK, such a Liddell Hart, and to a certain extent Churchill, were calling for th formation of more mobile units. The French were reliant on the Maginot Line, and diplomatic arrangements with some of the Central European and Balkan states. Until 1934, Italy was regarded as part of the anti-Hitler coalition: it was Mussolini moving Italian troops to the Austrian border that discouraged Germany from taking advantage of a pro-Nazi coup in that year.
On the other hand, the German Pre-War builds, although we've chosen a strange assortment of units, was a genuine option - there were powerful voices calling for more research into tank and other mobile formations, and Himmler did try to form an SS Air Arm.
There's a certain rationale to it as well.
If the Allies were so gung-ho as to be building offensive weapons years prior to the outbreak of war, they also would have been likely to stomp Hitler's ass as soon as he tried to reoocupy the Rhineland, annex Austria, etc.
The more defensive builds make sense.
I also have to agree that extending the Maginot line shouldn't only be an EC thing. The decision to launch it or not should rest with the German, but he needn't ALWAYS go for it. The problem with this is that it would require discussing with your opponent, which would take away any shock value, and has the potential to make France even more difficult, should the German skip the EC potential.
Consideration should also be given to the fact that sometime in the future there may BE no EC option, just a seperate version. Will there still be an extend Maginot Line option in a standard game? If so, it would require a different kind of penalty. Triggers a TO for the German to create a heavy arty formation? A bunch of 'Anzio Annies'?
Doesn't the extended Maginot Line give the Axis the armies of Belgium and Holland? This is at least some bonus in a non-EC game.
Dan Neely
08 Feb 03, 14:59
it doesn't. What happens is that with no chance of them declaring for the allies, the allies will have to choose between invading the low contries, going through the italian and austrian alps or attempting to breach the siegfried line.
Yeah, not too pretty, is it?
Sturlungur
09 Feb 03, 08:54
How about some Eastern Europe diplomatic efforts as an allied pre-war option?
The allies and the French in particular had tried extensively to form alliances with the Eastern Europe countries to counter the German threat.
Lets say that they score a succsess as a TO and some of the would be minor allies of the Axis drop entirely out of the war!
Instead the EV value would be lowered for maybe -20?
This should not take too many events (if there are any).:)
As stated before, the EV cannot drop to a negative value. If this option was used prior to some action by the German, then the Allied player could get away with it for free; or if Poland was the only thing done, then they'd lower the variable by only 10 (to zero) instead of the 20 called for, etc.
Sturlungur
09 Feb 03, 11:32
Hmm. Yes forgot that.:o
Maybe there is a way around such things like reducing the of wouldbe pluses in the future on the EV timetable or cancelling them altogether?
Also an Allied pre-war diplomatic success with the Balkan nations could mean a delayment of their possible entry into the war instead of knocking them out alltogether.
Thus space would not be needed to make an pro-allied army in case the Axis player decided to invade this bothersome minor as they did in Yugoslavia.
This could put some dent in the Axis timetable since he would need some troops for garrison or patrol duty in the Balkans or Southern Russia.
Braveheart
09 Feb 03, 12:07
Originally posted by Mantis
As stated before, the EV cannot drop to a negative value.
I thought someone (Dan Neely? Sorry I can't find it now :( ) explained a way around this.
Start the US with 50 points and set tham to enter at 150, for example. Then there's space for negative events.
Dan Neely
09 Feb 03, 12:13
Originally posted by Braveheart
I thought someone (Dan Neely? Sorry I can't find it now :( ) explained a way around this.
Start the US with 50 points and set tham to enter at 150, for example. Then there's space for negative events.
you need to put an EEV reduction event in to do that because the EEV is limited to 0<=EEV<=100
Braveheart
09 Feb 03, 12:43
the EEV is limited to 0<=EEV<=100
Thanks, Dan!
Then why not use smaller increments for each event?
Events that are now +5 become +2
+7 becomes +3
+10 becomes +4, etc.
Then you could start at 40 and the US enters at 80.
I think a pro-Allied Balkans is possible but only in a EA spin-off scenario. Siberian Heat is creating a 1942 EA spin-off and there are many other paths that can be taken.
For example, a scenario could be created where the Allies are very aggresive and attempt to invade Germany in 1937. Also a pro-Axis US could make for an interesting scenario. A pro-Allied Italy scenario is also another idea.
Mark Stevens
09 Feb 03, 17:47
A fascinating scenario would be one set in the pre-War years - say the mid-30s onward. There were some historical conflicts, like the Italian invasion of Ethiopia and the Spanish Civil War, and a host of 'what-ifs' arising from the reoccupation of the Rhineland, the Austrian coup in 1934, the Anschluss, the Czech crisis, a possible Russo-Polish war and the general instability in the Balkans.
Originally posted by Braveheart
I thought someone (Dan Neely? Sorry I can't find it now :( ) explained a way around this.
Start the US with 50 points and set tham to enter at 150, for example. Then there's space for negative events.
I recently started a thread about modifying the EV so that it can start at 30, or what-have-you. Reduce the +'s that will certainly happen so that the balance remains, but there is room for a few negatives to occur without the German first incurring a few EV hits.
Originally posted by Mark Stevens
A fascinating scenario would be one set in the pre-War years - say the mid-30s onward. There were some historical conflicts, like the Italian invasion of Ethiopia and the Spanish Civil War, and a host of 'what-ifs' arising from the reoccupation of the Rhineland, the Austrian coup in 1934, the Anschluss, the Czech crisis, a possible Russo-Polish war and the general instability in the Balkans.
Something akin to World in Flames, that vaporware title by the Aussies? I've been twitching to play something like that, but aside from a few public betas, it hasn't moved in ages.
Sturlungur
10 Feb 03, 19:42
Originally posted by Mantis
Something akin to World in Flames, that vaporware title by the Aussies? I've been twitching to play something like that, but aside from a few public betas, it hasn't moved in ages.
Would be nice to know more about this much talked about game.;-)
I've been reading a bit about the midwar years and that was certainly a turbulent period. All these alliances, small warfares that profed a significant step towards the WW2, the unbelievebly different lessons the European nations learned both from the Great War and some of the conflicts in the mid-war years and how Adolf Hitler was able to uniqly exploit the political situation at the time.
I'm just dying to get into contact with some game or scenario which portrais this period. Any suggestions?
Ben Turner
10 Feb 03, 21:12
Originally posted by Mark Stevens
A fascinating scenario would be one set in the pre-War years - say the mid-30s onward. There were some historical conflicts, like the Italian invasion of Ethiopia and the Spanish Civil War, and a host of 'what-ifs' arising from the reoccupation of the Rhineland, the Austrian coup in 1934, the Anschluss, the Czech crisis, a possible Russo-Polish war and the general instability in the Balkans.
The trouble is that the best war the Germans can hope for is the one they started- and as you've discovered that itself is not easy for them.
Really, for the Germans to get to where they were in early 1941 to where they had been just 8 years ago is so amazing as to be almost beyond belief. From terrible economic depression and having an army of 100,000 men with none of the trappings of a modern fighting force to being the dominant military and political power in Europe in such a short time is utterly unprescedented.
Originally posted by Mantis
As stated before, the EV cannot drop to a negative value. If this option was used prior to some action by the German, then the Allied player could get away with it for free; or if Poland was the only thing done, then they'd lower the variable by only 10 (to zero) instead of the 20 called for, etc.
Is the EV max set at 100? I thought you can adjust the "activation" level of the EV. If so, why not START the EV at 100 and have the activation at 200. This way you can have "negative" numbers.
OR, if the max EV is 100, start the EV at 50 and cut all the current values by 1/2. Now, again, you can go below the starting value and still be ok.
Doh! As I read further into the thread, I see my above comment/suggestion has already been stated.
As Emily Latella <sp> used to say.... "Nevermind."
What about it, Mark? Doing something that stops the Russians from getting away with freebies would be a good change. I don't purposely watch the EV to see if I can scam it a bit, but I do make a habit of doing both Finland and the Baltic States at the same time. I'd like to know I'm not pulling crap!
Mark Stevens
11 Feb 03, 15:59
I'm pretty sure they're separate Events and sp should have a cumulative effect on the USEV.
Once we finish tiddling with the USEV all you'll see - or perhaps not - is 'US concern increases over the war in Europe.'
And we'll see that even if there is no EV effect, correct?
And actually, what I meant by my above post ws when the EV is at 0 or 10 or something, and then you cause a -10 or -15 or something with the Russians, and get away with some stuff for free, since the variable cannot go to a negative. (0 - 10 for Finland is still 0)
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