Poland in Flames (PiF)

[Paul M. Weir]

Ian and Paul, i agree with you both as these can only be done by SSR after there release.

Never thought about 2 different 2nd line squads, makes good sense, especially with the lower broken side morale.:cool:

Not trying to sound negative about them, just playing "devils advocate"....:bite:
I was just speculating about options, I don't know what BFP are cooking up. The lower broken morale is just a possible choice, nothing more.

There is nothing bad per se about being negative on something. Unless you are dealing with the blindingly obvious, there is a need to look at both sides of a question and I can understand a reluctance to change what is a very successful system.

[Kevin Kenneally]

You three need to get together and submit a "new counter" to BFP or MMP for this idea.

You have some very interesting input into this topic.

[JMcL63]

I had, very, very late last night a quick glance at that blog. Very far from the usual blog. I will reread it when I have properly woken today. I am not usually a 'blog' person but your one seems worth a serious and careful read.
EDIT: Had a careful read of it. Articulate and thoughtful. Rep given.

Thank you for your generous appreciation Paul. You can be sure that you and custardpie have both encouraged me to get back to the bloggery sooner rather than later. While you’re waiting, you might care to check out RD/KA!’s Squad Leader (http://jmcl63.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Squad%20Leader) and ASL (http://jmcl63.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/ASL) labels. There’s not a lot there just now, but it does show the profound influence Squaddie had on me in my youth. :smoke:

[JMcL63]

Whatever BFP do with 2nd line Soviets in Poland in 1939, I think the discussion about bringing this echelon into the later Soviet OB has agreed on this much:

The existing OB’s brittle 1-step ELR-reduction is quite appropriate for the Soviets during Barbarossa and well through 1942.
Guards are the first 2-step ELR-reduction MMC because that’s how the Soviets rebuilt their army into 1943 (they proved their worth above all at Stalingrad).
The issue is whether non-Guards 2-step ELR-reduction MMC are an appropriate addition to the Soviet OB from 1943 onwards. I think the case for this has been well made (and it was demonstrated in practice at Kursk, surely?).

This raises some questions:

The obvious one is what should the MMC Strength Factors be?
Should the new MMC be an addition to the OB, or should they replace the existing 1-step ELR-reduction MMC?

Taking the last point first. I suggest that Paul’s own decisive argument (http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?104865-Poland-in-Flames-%28PiF%29&p=1503041&viewfull=1#post1503041) for the new 2-step ELR-reduction MMC is also a good argument for keeping those classic Soviet MMC in the OB through until 1945, giving the Soviets 3 different troop qualities in their mid/late-war OB:

Guards: classic 2-step ELR-reduction MMC.
Seasoned: new (non-elite?- I think so) 2-step ELR-reduction MMC.
Line: classic 1-step ELR-reduction MMC.

According to this scheme, 2 new sets of MMC would be needed:

Seasoned rifle and SMG squads/HS.
2nd line rifle and SMG squads/HS.

It’s logical enough that the 2nd line MMC should have worse SF than the classic 1st line MMC- they are 2nd-line after all. I suggest the following squads:

Rifle: 4-3-7
SMG: 4-2-7

It equally makes sense that the new Seasoned MMC should have SF better than the classic 1st line MMC. Applying KISS, you could just give them all +1 Morale. I don’t think increasing FP or Range can be justified because it essentially makes them elites, which isn’t the purpose of the exercise it seems to me. If you consider the classic Soviet OB given added depth and staying power by the addition of these MMC, it’s easy to see them dealing with anything the mid/late-war Germans can throw at them.

One last point: I don’t think the Soviets should have 4-step ELR-reduction MMC in their OB. The absence of these remains one of ASL’s neatest representations of the mass character of their army compared to the other 3 major Euro-Atlantic powers.

[Paul M. Weir]

I guess I will have to disagree with you on some points.

As I said before, I don't know what BFP has in mind for 2nd line troops for the Polish campaign. However if you were to introduce them, this is my idea.
A 4-3-7/7 or 4-3-7/6 2nd line rifle, no SMG squads at this time. Some troops start out as 437 rather than 447. A conscript 426 would BH ->437->447->458 as expected. However both a 447 and 437 would both go down to 426. Thus 458->447->426 and 437->426. This would prevent 447 being more resilient than normal while allowing troops not as good as 1st line but not a complete rabble. BH promotion would also be slower to get to 458.

For the late war, we seem to agree on a 4-3-7 2nd line rifle squad. For the SMG squad you have a good point about dropping an underscore. I would suggest that the assault fire capability should be the first to go (more training and élan to use that capacity) while they still have all automatic weapons. I would suggest a 4-2-7/7 or 4-2-7/6. The SS don't get assault fire until '44 while they have spraying fire through out the war: Harder to get, easier to loose (or in trade union terms, last in, first out).

For the late war is where we will have to agree to disagree. I would see 2nd line squads as an (SSR invoked) extra layer for seasoned troops. Yes it goes against the ASL Soviet archetype. But ASL has modified established patterns. EG. Originally the SS were all 658, then the 468 and 838 were introduced and with ABtF the 548 and 447 were added. This was a recognition that the older pattern was not always appropriate.

There are situations where the 3 layer model will be most appropriate even in the late war. Newly raised units and units that had absorbed large number of conscripts ("booty troops") in its advance through liberated Western USSR (and sometimes Poland) should still be represented by the standard 3 layer model. Veteran units, where appropriate, should get the extra layer, becoming 4 layer troops.

I feel the addition of an extra 2nd line layer keeps the changes to the minimum and follows existing ASL patterns for other nationalities.

Guards units will still be distinguished by an initial higher % of E units and SW and possibly a higher ERL (higher priority for replacements) than their neighbouring non Guards units. Regardless of Guards or non Guards status, this weeks refreshed 4 layer (by SSR) unit with ERL 4 might be next weeks tired 3 layer unit with ERL of 3.

There are a few cases for new Soviet squad types, but they are not related to this problem. The existing 3 layer mix of C, 1 and E is adequate for the late war in the majority of circumstances (how big a majority is another question), but I feel that an additional 2nd class layer is appropriate at (many) times. I think an extra 2nd line is the simplest way and makes no changes to the existing types. I also do not regard the 3 layer model of the Soviets to be sacrosanct. Again this just my view.

[JMcL63]

I guess I will have to disagree with you on some points.
Well Paul your arguments have already been persuasive, so by all means go ahead. :)


As I said before, I don't know what BFP has in mind for 2nd line troops for the Polish campaign. However if you were to introduce them, this is my idea.
A 4-3-7/7 or 4-3-7/6 2nd line rifle, no SMG squads at this time. Some troops start out as 437 rather than 447. A conscript 426 would BH ->437->447->458 as expected. However both a 447 and 437 would both go down to 426. Thus 458->447->426 and 437->426. This would prevent 447 being more resilient than normal while allowing troops not as good as 1st line but not a complete rabble. BH promotion would also be slower to get to 458.
I’m open on the question of the 2nd line rifle being 437/7 or 437/6. I guess I tend to prefer the former, but that’s got more to do with wanting to see better units than it has any rational apprecation of the merits of the case. Other than that like these ideas a lot. You retain the 2-step ELR-reduction (3-step units) which I favour as characteristic of the Soviet army in general, while simultaneously addressing the obvious issue of BH from the 426.


For the late war, we seem to agree on a 4-3-7 2nd line rifle squad. For the SMG squad you have a good point about dropping an underscore. I would suggest that the assault fire capability should be the first to go (more training and élan to use that capacity) while they still have all automatic weapons. I would suggest a 4-2-7/7 or 4-2-7/6. The SS don't get assault fire until '44 while they have spraying fire through out the war: Harder to get, easier to loose (or in trade union terms, last in, first out).
Unfortunately Paul, you’re here agreeing with a typograhpical error; ie. I just forgot the other underscore. Still, I was thinking about using underscores to vary Strength Factors, so the idea of removing one is easy to agree with. I agree with your argument about assault fire and spraying fire. I guess the question here is do the 2nd line SMG MMC need both a broken morale reduction and the loss of assault fire? I suggest this will have a bearing on the broken morale of the 2nd line rifle MMC.


For the late war is where we will have to agree to disagree. I would see 2nd line squads as an (SSR invoked) extra layer for seasoned troops. Yes it goes against the ASL Soviet archetype. But ASL has modified established patterns. EG. Originally the SS were all 658, then the 468 and 838 were introduced and with ABtF the 548 and 447 were added. This was a recognition that the older pattern was not always appropriate.

There are situations where the 3 layer model will be most appropriate even in the late war. Newly raised units and units that had absorbed large number of conscripts ("booty troops") in its advance through liberated Western USSR (and sometimes Poland) should still be represented by the standard 3 layer model. Veteran units, where appropriate, should get the extra layer, becoming 4 layer troops.

I feel the addition of an extra 2nd line layer keeps the changes to the minimum and follows existing ASL patterns for other nationalities.

Guards units will still be distinguished by an initial higher % of E units and SW and possibly a higher ERL (higher priority for replacements) than their neighbouring non Guards units. Regardless of Guards or non Guards status, this weeks refreshed 4 layer (by SSR) unit with ERL 4 might be next weeks tired 3 layer unit with ERL of 3.

There are a few cases for new Soviet squad types, but they are not related to this problem. The existing 3 layer mix of C, 1 and E is adequate for the late war in the majority of circumstances (how big a majority is another question), but I feel that an additional 2nd class layer is appropriate at (many) times. I think an extra 2nd line is the simplest way and makes no changes to the existing types. I also do not regard the 3 layer model of the Soviets to be sacrosanct. Again this just my view.
As ever Paul, you have argued your case very persuasively. The decisive point for me in respect of the whole 3-step or 4-step units issue was your reference to “2nd line squads as an (SSR invoked) extra layer for seasoned troops”, which you backed up with your example: “Regardless of Guards or non Guards status, this weeks refreshed 4 layer (by SSR) unit with ERL 4 might be next weeks tired 3 layer unit with ERL of 3”. I like this because it:

Makes the 4-step Soviet units a scenario-specific exception to the 3-step rule, as opposed to a standard feature of their OB in any given period.
Grounds the exception not in standard training and doctrine (ie. the 4-step units of the other major powers), but in battlefield conditions, ie. the historical basis of how Soviet units’ quality improved.
(Unless I have completely misunderstood you.) Limits the system changes to the appropriate 2nd line MMC instead of the new seasoned 1st line MMC I proposed.
My last point here does raise an important question: do you think that the classic 2-step line units have any place at all in the mid/late war? This is germane because the presence of any 2-step units alongside 4-step units would require some means to distinguish those 1st line units which reduce to conscripts via 2nd line units from those which reduce straight to conscripts. This could be done in various ways using the existing countermix, eg. designating all rifle MMC as classic 2-step units; but ultimately, ASL being what it is, it seems to me that appropriate new counters would be demanded (in contradiction to my last point above).

Anyway, I’ll leave the discussion there for you to pick up my questions should you wish. Before signing off I’d just like to note that I dropped out of ASL (selling off my then complete set due to a bout of poverty) sometime in 1990/91 so that, even though I’ve now got a hefty chunk of the key MMP products published in the intervening years, I didn’t follow the changes which you mention above in their actual development. Also, joining in here at GS in recent months is the first time I’ve ever been involved in ASL discussion of this seriousness- be that in meatspace or online, which means that I’m completely ignorant of how the system’s development has been discussed by the fans. If I seem a bit conservative in respect of changes to the system, maybe that’s got something to with that experience?

[Chas]

I am confident you will like what we have done counterwise in PiF:)

[custardpie]

I am confident you will like what we have done counterwise in PiF:)

Now that was skirting the posts LOL

Hoping to put away the play test tonight, been a blast (in every way), we both have had great fun, groans and it ain't over yet

Ian

[Chas]

Ian,

Awesome! That scenario may be final if your game is close.

Thanks,
Chas

[custardpie]

Ian,

Awesome! That scenario may be final if your game is close.

Thanks,
Chas

It's close, only problem is both of us are no longer sure who should be attacking!!! It reminds me of Death Roamed Freely due to the mixed nature of the attack defence situation we have going. Really holding our attention!!!

Ian

[Gunner Scott]

Hi-

So what scenarios have you playtested from this pack Chas? And what do you think thus far?

Scott


Ian,

Awesome! That scenario may be final if your game is close.

Thanks,
Chas

[Paul M. Weir]

First, a minor terms issue, I used the term layer (or level) to refer to the total number of troop classes (E, 1, 2, 3) rather than 'steps' which can get confusing as to whether it refers to the number of classes or the number of steps to get from E to C/G.

I’m open on the question of the 2nd line rifle being 437/7 or 437/6. I guess I tend to prefer the former, but that’s got more to do with wanting to see better units than it has any rational apprecation of the merits of the case.
I am a fair bit wavering myself. Axis/Allied Minor 1st line are X-Y-7/6, so there is a precedent. I am a bit tending towards the 347/7 for the same reasons as you.

Unfortunately Paul, you’re here agreeing with a typograhpical error; ie. I just forgot the other underscore. <snip> I guess the question here is do the 2nd line SMG MMC need both a broken morale reduction and the loss of assault fire? I suggest this will have a bearing on the broken morale of the 2nd line rifle MMC.
Yes, both will have to have the same broken morale. Even if it was a typo, once brought up, it is still something to consider. I see 2nd line troops as a halfway house between 1 and C, not having the inexperienced penalties but definitely a cut below 1st line.



<snip>I like this because it:

Makes the 4-step Soviet units a scenario-specific exception to the 3-step rule, as opposed to a standard feature of their OB in any given period.
Grounds the exception not in standard training and doctrine (ie. the 4-step units of the other major powers), but in battlefield conditions, ie. the historical basis of how Soviet units’ quality improved.
(Unless I have completely misunderstood you.) Limits the system changes to the appropriate 2nd line MMC instead of the new seasoned 1st line MMC I proposed.


This has to be the case because of the volume of existing scenarios, though if it became official it could come with a strong recommendation for future scenarios.
By mid '43 proper training regimes had been introduced, battle lessons and experience propagated, logistics, doctrine and leadership had improved and more importantly the average Soviet believed the Germans could not only be stopped but utterly defeated. Faith based upon the individual's whole experience (training, unit integration and battle success) is what I think makes the difference, not just 1 thing.
Yup! Keep changes to a minimum. For one, less potential confusion. Other nations like the British have the same basic 4-5-7 squad in 1940 and 1944, though the historical experience level would have been vastly different. ERL, leadership, SW allocation and in this proposed (Soviet) case number of layers/levels has been the ASL way to mark the difference.

My last point here does raise an important question: do you think that the classic 2-step line units have any place at all in the mid/late war? This is germane because the presence of any 2-step units alongside 4-step units would require some means to distinguish those 1st line units which reduce to conscripts via 2nd line units from those which reduce straight to conscripts. This could be done in various ways using the existing countermix, eg. designating all rifle MMC as classic 2-step units; but ultimately, ASL being what it is, it seems to me that appropriate new counters would be demanded (in contradiction to my last point above).
I presume that when you said 2 step you meant 3 layer (E,1,C) and when you said 4 step you meant 4 layer (E,1,2,C). An ASL OoB might only have 1 & C but in theory some could BH to E.

I would see the transition from 3 layer (3L) to 4L being a gradual process, starting around the Kursk time period. By '45 I would feel that 4L would become the majority. As an offensive runs out of steam then former 4L should be treated as 3L. With the buildup and rest period before the next surge many 3L would become/return to 4L. A scenario designer would have to make an design decision on which to use based upon his/her reading of the battle.

As scenarios are relatively small affairs, I would see no need to mix 3L and 4L, but if you really had to do that, with all the HASL out there with extra Soviet troops, you could SSR that 447 with ID of A-Z are 4L and those with ID AA-ZZ or a-z are 3L (or split A-M and Z-N). I just can't think offhand where that would be necessary (a cut off unit being relieved, maybe?).

<snip>If I seem a bit conservative in respect of changes to the system, maybe that’s got something to with that experience?
Conservatism per se is not a fault. Given the geographical and time spread of ASL and ASL players, it has provided a consistency and stability that has stood ASL well. The game you left is fairly much the game you came back to, with the addition of some extra toys and maps. All we have been discussing has just been playing around the margins with a nuanced (and optional) variant to give a bit more historical flavour.

It has been, for me anyway, an interesting discussion. Hopefully the BFP folk might find the discussion useful to compare to what they intend in return for hogging their support sub-forum.

[Whizbang1963]

You'll love the countermix! Just the new vehicles and guns alone will have you drooling! Chapter H notes are inspiring enough to make you want to push counters just to see how they perform!

[Paul M. Weir]

You'll love the countermix! Just the new vehicles and guns alone will have you drooling! Chapter H notes are inspiring enough to make you want to push counters just to see how they perform!
Of that I have little doubt. B&J and CoS set the high bar for TTP product (MMP is, as official producer with different obligations in a different contest).

Sorry for the earlier speculative hijacking!

[horseshoe]

You'll love the countermix! Just the new vehicles and guns alone will have you drooling! Chapter H notes are inspiring enough to make you want to push counters just to see how they perform!

Will PiF see the light of day this year or early next year, assuming no Mayan appocalypse. Really looking forward to it...:cool:

[Kevin Kenneally]

Will PiF see the light of day this year or early next year, assuming no Mayan appocalypse. Really looking forward to it...:cool:

Hopefully.

Saw an advertisement at the Austin Tournament about this, but no firm date.

[horseshoe]

Hopefully.

Saw an advertisement at the Austin Tournament about this, but no firm date.

COOL. We always need something to spend our money on....:p

[Chas]

Yeah, no way this is coming out in 2012. Way too much PTing and work to be done. And it will take a lot of work to release it in 2013.

Chas

[Gunner Scott]

Hi ya-

Instead of putting out a pack with 30 to 40 scenarios, why not put out a pack with 10 to 12 scenarios with what ever maps or counters that are needed?


Scott

[MarkDV]

Yeah, no way this is coming out in 2012. Way too much PTing and work to be done. And it will take a lot of work to release it in 2013.

Chas

Just from where I"m sitting...NO PROBLEM. I get a solid 1 game a week in, and I"m so far freaking (and more expletives) behind in playing, I"m in NO hurry for more of your superior product.

I'd rather it's done well, rather than (cough couch CRITICAL HIT) where there products sometimes need a 2nd edition to get all the tweaks and or problems out.

JMHO....


Mark DV
Ada, MI

[custardpie]

Hi ya-

Instead of putting out a pack with 30 to 40 scenarios, why not put out a pack with 10 to 12 scenarios with what ever maps or counters that are needed?


Scott

Maybe other stuff will make it out the gate this year anyway. I'm happy for one great product a year to two good products in a year. Whilst B&J and CoS have been expensive (compared to other TPPreleases) they have been value for money and have been great products with enough well balanced scanarios, low level of errata that they stand toe to toe with MMP and possibly excede them? (Any one else replaced counters for free?????)

I always measure the cost of an item to number of plays from a pack/product. Few items have come out of that equation cheaper than BFP's packs. Even with the high number of playtests I did with CoS I still have played a fair few after production. I would not tinker with their system, it's working gine from where I am standing

Ian

[Delirium]

I would not tinker with their system, it's working gine from where I am standing

Exactly :)

There's no rush and I'm looking forward to another large BFP product.

[RobZagnut]

Yeah, no way this is coming out in 2012. Way too much PTing and work to be done. And it will take a lot of work to release it in 2013.

Chas

That's a bummer, but understandable. 30+ scenarios on 9+ new mapboards takes a long time to playtest and fine tune. Plus, writing articles for a booklet, adding new rules and/or terrain changes and vehicles notes ain't a walk in the park either.

Don't change a thing! Let's hope that ASLOK 2013 is your target date.

[Arlecchino]

Yeah don't change nothing, keep publish best ASL stuff. Take your time, we don't hurry.

[Whizbang1963]

we will, and we won't hurry <G>

[Chas]

Good news is that another scenario (Slovs attacking Poles) went Final.

[von Marwitz]

Hello Chas,

I am looking forward for your development and release of PiF. As a native German speaker and owner of a library of 500+ books on various conflicts - most of them WW II - I might be able to offer you some assistance regarding the spelling of German terms, unit-names, places, etc. if you so desire. In case this offer is of interest, drop me a message.

Oftentimes there are some minor spelling or grammar mistakes in the historical intros of scenarios or articles - nothing really serious but something that could be easily amended in most cases.



All the best
von Marwitz

[Delirium]

Good news is that another scenario (Slovs attacking Poles) went Final.

Super - I particularly enjoy Poles vs Slovenian scenarios.

Played S46 Across the Border over the weekend :)

[Paul M. Weir]

Super - I particularly enjoy Poles vs Slovenian scenarios.

Played S46 Across the Border over the weekend :)
I think you mean Slovak? The Slovenia was in the north of Yugoslavia.

[Kevin Kenneally]

I think you mean Slovak? The Slovenia was in the north of Yugoslavia.

They also fielded elements of the German Army as well; after "accepting" Uncle Adolf and his friends.......

[Chas]

Paul,

Check your email. Have had some time the last couple of days to resurect an old research topic.

Thanks,
Chas

[Matt Book]

Crazy thought, I know scenarios involving the Russian Civil War have been made, but what about scenarios from the 1920 Battle of Warsaw when the Soviets invaded Poland? Right in this pack's theme...could offer OB twists...

[Kevin Kenneally]

Crazy thought, I know scenarios involving the Russian Civil War have been made, but what about scenarios from the 1920 Battle of Warsaw when the Soviets invaded Poland? Right in this pack's theme...could offer OB twists...

Name of any books that cover this event?

Eastern Europe fighting between 1919 and 1937 is very rare to find in many book stores in the US.

[Srynerson]

Name of any books that cover this event?

Eastern Europe fighting between 1919 and 1937 is very rare to find in many book stores in the US.

I haven't read either of them, so I don't know how good they would be as ASL source material, but Warsaw 1920: Lenin's Failed Conquest of Europe by Adam Zamoyski and White Eagle, Red Star: The Polish-Soviet War 1919-1920 and The Miracle on the Vistula by Norman Davies are both well-reviewed.

[Chas]

We have a couple of scenarios designed from The Polish-Soviet War, but not sure if they will be included in PiF. There is so much even without those. IIRC maybe also had one done up with Poles fighting Ukranians, but designed these about 5 or 6 years ago.

Chas

[TopT]

We have a couple of scenarios designed from The Polish-Soviet War, but not sure if they will be included in PiF. There is so much even without those. IIRC maybe also had one done up with Poles fighting Ukranians, but designed these about 5 or 6 years ago.

Chas

Maybe a RbF #5 ? I know that it is a HoB Mag but who knows.

[RobZagnut]

How's Poland in Flames progressing?

ASLOK is fast approaching and although BFP won't have a release for it you should at least release an ASLOK update of what's happening at BFP.

[dlazov]

If this was CSW about 10 people would have jumped on this in the MMP folder...



ASLOK is fast approaching and although BFP won't have a release for it you should at least release an ASLOK update of what's happening at BFP.

with things like quit telling BFP how to run their business, or how dare you question BFP running of their business, with a bunch of eyes rolling etc...

I think PiF will be pretty cool, is there not another East Front and Pacific thing they are working on?

Man if they do a Desert thing that would be cool too.

Ah, you know I was going through some Soviet images and they had Soviets with captured German vehicles, there is some room for Soviet Panthers and Pz III/IV...

[rreinesch]

I think PiF will be pretty cool, is there not another East Front and Pacific thing they are working on?

Man if they do a Desert thing that would be cool too.



PiF playtesting is progressing. We have other projects in the pipeline, a couple of PTO ones dealing with Peleliu and Corregidor. And Schmidt is getting close.

[rdw5150]

If this was CSW about 10 people would have jumped on this in the MMP folder...




with things like quit telling BFP how to run their business, or how dare you question BFP running of their business, with a bunch of eyes rolling etc...



Yep, you ain't kidding

[Whizbang1963]

If this was CSW about 10 people would have jumped on this in the MMP folder...




with things like quit telling BFP how to run their business, or how dare you question BFP running of their business, with a bunch of eyes rolling etc...

I think PiF will be pretty cool, is there not another East Front and Pacific thing they are working on?

Man if they do a Desert thing that would be cool too.

Ah, you know I was going through some Soviet images and they had Soviets with captured German vehicles, there is some room for Soviet Panthers and Pz III/IV...

Thankfully it's not, but we do appreciate your feedback on how we run the company, we do listen. Rick answered on the other one. I know the entitre team is crazy busy.

[Paul M. Weir]

I just picked up the latest "After the Battle" magazine a few hours ago and the subject was Warsaw 1939. Although I have a couple of their books, this is the first magazine issue that I bought. I thought it timely with PiF coming out next year.

[Gunner Scott]

Playtesting a PiF scenario today, very nice DW maps that can turn an ordinary infantry engagement into something more interesting.

Scott

[kynken]

Looking forward to this one, really soon.

[custardpie]

Looking forward to this one, really soon.

I'm afraid not, should be out at the usual time in 2013 but real soon is not when that will be. I've played a fair amount from the pack as PT's and many have been typically BFP quality. The ones that I felt fell below this are still under repeat PT's (or where when I played them) tough some great scenarios were early stage scenarios which is amazing that they can be that good but early in the process

Ian

[Whizbang1963]

The scenario list is still not final. We're still doing some preliminary run throughs of items that may still make it into PiF. 2013 for sure, but probably 2nd half of the year.

[Chas]

We are shooting for 2013 but will definitely be late in the year. But we will not publish until it is ready. We are way ahead on some aspects, right on track on others, and a lot depends on how the PTing keeps going.

Chas

[Kevin Kenneally]

We are shooting for 2013 but will definitely be late in the year. But we will not publish until it is ready. We are way ahead on some aspects, right on track on others, and a lot depends on how the PTing keeps going.

Chas


Thanks for the update Chas.

[synicbast]

We are shooting for 2013 but will definitely be late in the year.
Chas

ASLOK Please :)

[Kevin Kenneally]

The scenario list is still not final. We're still doing some preliminary run throughs of items that may still make it into PiF. 2013 for sure, but probably 2nd half of the year.

Thanks for the update Brian

[sarfs]

ASLOK Please :)

+1 .......

[Chas]

Only if it is truly ready, but ASLOK would be great.

[kynken]

can't wait. any SASL stuff included? Just a wish.

[footsteps]

can't wait. any SASL stuff included? Just a wish.

You'd be on your own, then.

[mryder]

You'd be on your own, then.

Obviously, since that is what SASL is all about.:D Seriously though, any SASL in there? It would be nice.
Matt

[kynken]

Obviously, since that is what SASL is all about.:D Seriously though, any SASL in there? It would be nice.
Matt

Thank you. I love the idea of early war material, so I was just wishing out load. :)

[william.stoppel]

It would also be nice to see you at ASLOK Chas.

Bill


Only if it is truly ready, but ASLOK would be great.

[Chas]

Will you be at WO.

[footsteps]

Too many pages to wade through... what is the expected board count?

[Chas]

Two DWs
Four standard
Possibly some overlays

[william.stoppel]

Yep! Starting out Thursday playing Slot in Holst's new Red Barricades scenario. I look fwd to seeing you there.

Bill


Will you be at WO.

[RobZagnut]

Possibly some overlays

Hill overlays?

A 7, 9, 11 and 13 hex Hill overlay? That can be possibly inter-locked to create larger Hills?

A 1 hex Wood Building, two hex Wood Building, 1 hex Woods, 2 hex Woods overlay with the base colors being level 1 and level 2 Hills? These of course, would not be full hex overlays. They would need to be partial hexes with two hex sides missing, so the overlays wouldn’t cover the contours of the Hills on the board.

[Gunner Scott]

Hi Bill-

The RB scenario is ok but the one I like more is Of Volunteers, Boy Scouts that used the VotG map and is kind of cool with the Russians and Poles fighting in Grodno. Hopefully Chas will work on the same action for PiF, I really enjoy scenarios with the Russians fighting other guys not just the Germans.


Scott


Yep! Starting out Thursday playing Slot in Holst's new Red Barricades scenario. I look fwd to seeing you there.

Bill

[horseshoe]

Hi Bill-

The RB scenario is ok but the one I like more is Of Volunteers, Boy Scouts that used the VotG map and is kind of cool with the Russians and Poles fighting in Grodno. Hopefully Chas will work on the same action for PiF, I really enjoy scenarios with the Russians fighting other guys not just the Germans.


Scott

Excellent point Scott, we definately NEED more scenarios featuring the Soviets against other nationalities...

[mryder]

Can I get any recommendations for a reading list to prep me for this release. I like a lot of historical background for these types of scenario packs/modules.
Matt

[Chas]

There are not a bunch of sexy new overlays. The scenarios are already designed.

There is a scenario set in Grodno.

There are definitely a nice chunk of Soviets vs. Polish scenarios.

Some good reads: Case White, Blitzkrieg Unleashed, Invinceable Black Brigade

[gevalim]

Some good reads: Case White, Blitzkrieg Unleashed, Invinceable Black Brigade
Thanks a lot for this. Hope to finish some reading before PiF is out, having made my homework for FB made the experience much enjoyable and the same will be the case of invasion of Poland....

[mryder]

Thanks Chas.
Matt

[Paul M. Weir]

There are not a bunch of sexy new overlays.
Just some 22" x 8" and 22" x 16" large overlays. :p Who needs overlays when you can do a whole board.

[Chas]

You could also go to one of the Zaloga books.

Paul,
Check your normal email. You are behind with me:)

Thanks,
chas

[footsteps]

Some good reads: Case White, Blitzkrieg Unleashed, Invinceable Black Brigade

Do any of those books give details of the fighting around the Brest fortress? Of course, I have an ulterior motive.

[Chas]

I know they are mentioned in places, but initial reads were that this did not make for great ASL. I could be wrong though. Only one scenario in PiF for Brest, and that is the initial push with a clash of armor in the suburbs.

Chas

[footsteps]

I know they are mentioned in places, but initial reads were that this did not make for great ASL. I could be wrong though. Only one scenario in PiF for Brest, and that is the initial push with a clash of armor in the suburbs.

Chas

Thanks Chas. (same for the board count). Just got CoS & HG2. Based on those, PiF will be awesome. Gotta start saving pennies again.

[footsteps]

The year is a week old already, and no sign of PiF & Schmidt! :angry:

[samtyson]

Not true - I spotted an awesome shot of the two cover models on the back inside cover of LFT13 - thanks to Rick Reinesch for the great artwork and Xavier for the great publication.

[volgaG68]

Is Poland in Flames an extension or variant of Portland in Flames that I bought from Psycho's Discount Scenario Shack? Besides, I don't remember the Japanese beachhead at Attu extending that far south! BFP's version sounds a little more plausible. ;)

[RobZagnut]

Chas, how did the playtesting for PiF go at Winter Offensive? I'm especially interested if you got to play the one where I'm in the minority about its balance? Any more scenarios find their way to the 'finished' pile putting you closer to completion?

[Gunner Scott]

Rob-

Which one are you talking about? PM me so as not to let too much info out the bag lol.


Scott


Chas, how did the playtesting for PiF go at Winter Offensive? I'm especially interested if you got to play the one where I'm in the minority about its balance? Any more scenarios find their way to the 'finished' pile putting you closer to completion?

[Sparafucil3]

Chas, how did the playtesting for PiF go at Winter Offensive? I'm especially interested if you got to play the one where I'm in the minority about its balance? Any more scenarios find their way to the 'finished' pile putting you closer to completion?

He playtested all weekend long and had several others there doing the same. All in all, I bet he got no fewer than 15 playtests completed on scenarios. I know Chas and I played one (great fun). -- jim

[Chas]

Yep, lots of great PTing. Great game with the Bishop. Finally met a bunch of people and saw some from the past. Overall great time.

Wolkey, scenario in question. I lost as the side you think cannot lose:). Tight game. Still going to see what others think.

Right now 11 scenarios final, 8 near final, and a ton of PTs scheduled for this weekend. So things are moving along very well.

Chas

[RobZagnut]

Yep, lots of great PTing. Great game with the Bishop. Finally met a bunch of people and saw some from the past. Overall great time.

Wolkey, scenario in question. I lost as the side you think cannot lose:). Tight game. Still going to see what others think.

Chas

Thanks for the update. Am sooooo looking forward to this one.

I'm surprised by your PT results. Everything went well for me and bad for him and it still wasn't close. Of course, we had to stop early and anything could have happened.

[Chas]

We are still PTing it, so will see what more data indicates.

[Doug Kirk]

I am sure it is buried in the 34 pages of this thread, and I have probably read it at some time or another, but I am lazy. What does this one include? Is this a big package? A couple maps? How many scenarios? Any counters?

[volgaG68]

I am sure it is buried in the 34 pages of this thread, and I have probably read it at some time or another, but I am lazy. What does this one include? Is this a big package? A couple maps? How many scenarios? Any counters?Check posts #310 and #316. Not very detailed, but Chas gives a good idea of what it will contain.

[Dave Lamb]

In addition we have 40+ scenarios. From playtesting, I suspect many of them are bound to become classics.

[Kevin Kenneally]

Do any of those books give details of the fighting around the Brest fortress? Of course, I have an ulterior motive.

I believe the Germans used their "amphibious tanks" (MkIIIs and MkIVs) for this attack; I believe they did not contributions to the fighting, but were successful in fording the river with the submersible attachments added on. (Chamberlain book called "The German Encyclopedia of Armored Vehicles for World War II")

[Chas]

Yeah, we have made a ton of progress in the last month and are rolling along very well.


Chas

[Delirium]

Good news :)

[kynken]

Yeah, we have made a ton of progress in the last month and are rolling along very well.


Chas

Progress is a good thing.

[Dave Lamb]

My team got in three more playtest completions since Thursday, with one more underway. We're doing our part to help Chas make progress!

[footsteps]

My team got in three more playtest completions since Thursday, with one more underway. We're doing our part to help Chas make progress!

Go team go!!!!!

[volgaG68]

Question: (INRE- PiF, O:S) Do new products from BFP go up with a pre-order process or do they just immediately go up for sale on their site when ready?

I bought all the BFP releases this summer/fall long after their initial debut, so I'm curious.

Thanks

[Spencer Armstrong]

Question: (INRE- PiF, O:S) Do new products from BFP go up with a pre-order process or do they just immediately go up for sale on their site when ready?

I bought all the BFP releases this summer/fall long after their initial debut, so I'm curious.

Thanks

They do PO. And that's the time to buy 'em. B&J and CoS were both in the neighborhood of $100 on PO.

And (at least historically) that's a shipped price, so direct from BFP on PO has been an unbeatable deal.

S

[ASLSARGE]

Yeah...what Spencer said. He's always beating me to a response. Guess that proves I'm getting old. Where's my bottle of Geritol?



They do PO. And that's the time to buy 'em. B&J and CoS were both in the neighborhood of $100 on PO.

And (at least historically) that's a shipped price, so direct from BFP on PO has been an unbeatable deal.

S

[gevalim]

Spence seems to be on 24x7 GS shift, that's true... :D

Anyway it's good news for me about BFP taking preorders. I am in the hobby not long enough to experience BFP preorder myself before.

[custardpie]

Spence seems to be on 24x7 GS shift, that's true... :D

Anyway it's good news for me about BFP taking preorders. I am in the hobby not long enough to experience BFP preorder myself before.

It's a thing of beauty, I remember CoS so well, especially as my wife took pictures as I gleefully opened up the box

Ian

[Delirium]

It's a thing of beauty, I remember CoS so well, especially as my wife took pictures as I gleefully opened up the box

Ian

One of the great pleasures of childhood is Christmas morning and the opening of gifts. A new BFP package resonates :)

[Spencer Armstrong]

Yeah...what Spencer said. He's always beating me to a response. Guess that proves I'm getting old. Where's my bottle of Geritol?


Spence seems to be on 24x7 GS shift, that's true... :D

Anyway it's good news for me about BFP taking preorders. I am in the hobby not long enough to experience BFP preorder myself before.

Baby+smartphone=strange hours checking the forums. No more to it than that.

S

[RobZagnut]

One of the great pleasures of childhood is Christmas morning and the opening of gifts. A new BFP package resonates :)

No doubt.

I've been playing a lot of CoS lately and the thought of similar scenarios from PiF makes me happy and excited, especially after playtesting a couple of PiF scenarios and Chas shared with me some of the extra double-secret probation goodies that will be inside.

Chas, we'll be playing this Friday. Send me a couple of scenarios you would like playtested.

[volgaG68]

They do PO. And that's the time to buy 'em. B&J and CoS were both in the neighborhood of $100 on PO.

And (at least historically) that's a shipped price, so direct from BFP on PO has been an unbeatable deal.

SThe recent drag on Rising Sun pre-orders has me wondering: does BFP also set a PO# that must be attained before going to the printers. I'm just curious, although I can't see PiF encountering that problem. After all RS is basically an upgraded reprint of existing modules, whereas PiF is going to be an entirely new grab-bag.

[Kevin Kenneally]

Baby+smartphone=strange hours checking the forums. No more to it than that.

S

You mean our lovely niece Zoe is NOT sleeping through the night YET?

All of us (GS Forumites), are her newest "Uncles" (and Aunt Nicky as well)......

[Kevin Kenneally]

The recent drag on Rising Sun pre-orders has me wondering: does BFP also set a PO# that must be attained before going to the printers. I'm just curious, although I can't see PiF encountering that problem. After all RS is basically an upgraded reprint of existing modules, whereas PiF is going to be an entirely new grab-bag.

There shouldn't be much of a drag, like RS is (I hope).

MMP will wait, and I do not think all the Game Stores have submitted their orders yet.

[Whizbang1963]

The recent drag on Rising Sun pre-orders has me wondering: does BFP also set a PO# that must be attained before going to the printers. I'm just curious, although I can't see PiF encountering that problem. After all RS is basically an upgraded reprint of existing modules, whereas PiF is going to be an entirely new grab-bag.

We don't speak publicly about this. Rest assured however that when PiF is done, it WILL be printed.

[sarfs]

We don't speak publicly about this. Rest assured however that when PiF is done, it WILL be printed.

And I will buy it!

[Vinnie]

I can see the preorder method of BFP being something like this:

" How many did we print of B&J?"

"15 million, and 12 million of CoS"

"Any left?"

"Just three and one of them's been peed on by the cat"

"So go with a run of 12 mill for PiF"

"Sounds about right...by the by, why do we keep using lower case letters in the middle of the two uppercase ones?

"Don't know, just a style point I suppose."

"You guys see the game last night?"

"Yes, dull until about half way..."

etc.

[sarfs]

...

"Sounds about right...by the by, why do we keep using lower case letters in the middle of the two uppercase ones?

"Don't know, just a style point I suppose."

...

Standard capitalization of a title, minor words, of,in,the, don't get capitalized.

[Kevin Kenneally]

Standard capitalization of a title, minor words, of,in,the, don't get capitalized.

Or, "It's an American thing".....

[RobZagnut]

TEASER ALERT...

Playtested two PIF scenarios last weekend for the second time. One is simply fabulous and it was even more fun the second time we played it. Lots of replayability and it is the perfect size to be finished in 4-6 hours. Both sides attack and defend, and both get 6 AFVs with lots of infantry. Also, got to play them on new BFP playtest boards (P & Q?) and got to read all the HSRs.

You're going to like PIF.

[Kevin Kenneally]

TEASER ALERT...

Playtested two PIF scenarios last weekend for the second time. One is simply fabulous and it was even more fun the second time we played it. Lots of replayability and it is the perfect size to be finished in 4-6 hours. Both sides attack and defend, and both get 6 AFVs with lots of infantry. Also, got to play them on new BFP playtest boards (P & Q?) and got to read all the HSRs.

You're going to like PIF.

Thanks Rob....


See any scenarios with "mounted Lancers"?

[Gunner Scott]

Hi-

Played one called Bunker Bash, uses PiF maps and is lots of fun, even has a Halftrack mounting a gun cant say what though. The Poles have a few pillboxes and the Germans gotta take them out. In our last game it came down to a German Hero vs Polish heroic leader. That was fun.

Hey KK, you playtest for MMP dont ya?

Scott


TEASER ALERT...

Playtested two PIF scenarios last weekend for the second time. One is simply fabulous and it was even more fun the second time we played it. Lots of replayability and it is the perfect size to be finished in 4-6 hours. Both sides attack and defend, and both get 6 AFVs with lots of infantry. Also, got to play them on new BFP playtest boards (P & Q?) and got to read all the HSRs.

You're going to like PIF.

[Chas]

Quick update. 18 scenarios now final and rolling along!

[RobZagnut]

Quick update. 18 scenarios now final and rolling along!

18 out of ... ?
What's the status of the mapboards?
What's the status of the countersheets?
What's the status of the HSSRs?
What's the status of the Articles?
What's the status of the Chapter H notes?

What's the status of Hurtgen?

You can't pop in here and leave us hanging without giving more details!?!?!? :)

[Mister T]

As to wishes, if not already too late, a map(s) pinpointing where the scenarios take place in Poland would be welcome (I would have liked a good tactical map of the Kursk operation with geographical info on the scenarios featured in Crucible of Steel).

[nebel]

As to wishes, if not already too late, a map(s) pinpointing where the scenarios take place in Poland would be welcome (I would have liked a good tactical map of the Kursk operation with geographical info on the scenarios featured in Crucible of Steel).

I think this is a great suggestion. This was a great feature of the most recent LFT mag with the Crimean campaign article and together they help us visualize the flow of the history relative to the game.

Chas has put out some great historical articles with some of his previous works so hopefully a scenario location map will be an easy add...

N

[Paolo Cariolato]

Chas did the pinpointing map for the Bagration scenarios in OtO long ago.

[rreinesch]

I'll take a stab at answering what I can...


18 out of ... ? Around 40. We have a decent amount over 40 in the works, but that's not to say that all will make the final cut.


What's the status of the mapboards? All designed and have been fleshed out in playtest form. Final versions still need to be generated. Right now we are looking at 2 double-wides and 4 standard boards.



What's the status of the countersheets? The majority of the counters have been designed. I won't lay them out until we get closer to getting ready to publish, but there will be a decent number of counters associated with this release. I would guess at least one full sheet of 1/2" and a full sheet of 5/8" just off the top of my head, but it honestly could be more than that. And I'm sure I'll think of some useful goodies to throw in if we have a little room.



What's the status of the HSSRs? These have been worked through in playtest form. We are recognizing the unique characteristics of the Polish troops that the current Allied Minor rules just don't deal with. There are plenty of instances where the Poles were the equals if not better than their German/Russian/Slovak counterparts, in both equipment and fighting men. We believe we have the SBRs in place to recognize that.



What's the status of the Articles? This I'll have to leave up to Chas to describe. I've edited a couple drafts of 'how-to' articles from Chas in the same vein as the fortification article we did in CoS. Should be helpful ones.



What's the status of the Chapter H notes? Again, they have been fleshed out in playtesting and are essentially complete, but we need to get them into final form for publication.




What's the status of Hurtgen? Counters are designed. Final maps are nearly done. Scenarios are in final playtesting check. We are probably going to add a couple more, so those will need to be run thru the wringer. The CG is essentially complete. I'm trying to get a final playing in with some final tweaks that I need to verify, but that is very close. Scenario cards are all laid out.


Rick

[horseshoe]

I'll take a stab at answering what I can...

Around 40. We have a decent amount over 40 in the works, but that's not to say that all will make the final cut.

All designed and have been fleshed out in playtest form. Final versions still need to be generated. Right now we are looking at 2 double-wides and 4 standard boards.


The majority of the counters have been designed. I won't lay them out until we get closer to getting ready to publish, but there will be a decent number of counters associated with this release. I would guess at least one full sheet of 1/2" and a full sheet of 5/8" just off the top of my head, but it honestly could be more than that. And I'm sure I'll think of some useful goodies to throw in if we have a little room.


These have been worked through in playtest form. We are recognizing the unique characteristics of the Polish troops that the current Allied Minor rules just don't deal with. There are plenty of instances where the Poles were the equals if not better than their German/Russian/Slovak counterparts, in both equipment and fighting men. We believe we have the SBRs in place to recognize that.


This I'll have to leave up to Chas to describe. I've edited a couple drafts of 'how-to' articles from Chas in the same vein as the fortification article we did in CoS. Should be helpful ones.


Again, they have been fleshed out in playtesting and are essentially complete, but we need to get them into final form for publication.



Counters are designed. Final maps are nearly done. Scenarios are in final playtesting check. We are probably going to add a couple more, so those will need to be run thru the wringer. The CG is essentially complete. I'm trying to get a final playing in with some final tweaks that I need to verify, but that is very close. Scenario cards are all laid out.


Rick

Sounds totally awesome !! Cant wait for these..:cool:

[Khill]

The majority of the counters have been designed. I won't lay them out until we get closer to getting ready to publish, but there will be a decent number of counters associated with this release. I would guess at least one full sheet of 1/2" and a full sheet of 5/8" just off the top of my head, but it honestly could be more than that. And I'm sure I'll think of some useful goodies to throw in if we have a little room.

Counters are designed. Final maps are nearly done. Scenarios are in final playtesting check. We are probably going to add a couple more, so those will need to be run thru the wringer. The CG is essentially complete. I'm trying to get a final playing in with some final tweaks that I need to verify, but that is very close. Scenario cards are all laid out.Rick

COUNTERS and Boards...

COUNTERS and Boards...

luv the BFP counters and boards

can't wait for these

:yummy::yummy::yummy:

[custardpie]

I've worked on a number of these scenarios both with new boards and counters and I have to say that BFP are really putting their stamp on The Poles. Anyone buying this pack will not be disappointed

Ian

[olli]

I've worked on a number of these scenarios both with new boards and counters and I have to say that BFP are really putting their stamp on The Poles. Anyone buying this pack will not be disappointed

Ian

So looking forward to this one!

[custardpie]

So looking forward to this one!

Me too, plenty I have not seen and I really like early war.

Ian